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Lamothe reports: "Marine Corps scout snipers used the logo of the notorious Nazi SS organization while in Afghanistan in 2010, the service acknowledged Thursday. The logo appeared on a flag in a photograph of the platoon taken in September 2010 in Sangin district, a hotly contested area in Helmand province."

Scout snipers in the Marine Corps shown with a flag bearing an 'SS' similar in design to one used in Germany by the SS, a paramilitary force that operated under the Nazi party. (photo: Marine Corps Times)
Scout snipers in the Marine Corps shown with a flag bearing an 'SS' similar in design to one used in Germany by the SS, a paramilitary force that operated under the Nazi party. (photo: Marine Corps Times)

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US Marines Posed With Nazi SS Symbol in Afghanistan

By Dan Lamothe, Marine Corps Times

10 February 12

 

arine Corps scout snipers used the logo of the notorious Nazi SS organization while in Afghanistan in 2010, the service acknowledged Thursday.

The logo appeared on a flag in a photograph of the platoon taken in September 2010 in Sangin district, a hotly contested area in Helmand province. The Marines were with Charlie Company, 1st Reconnaissance Battalion, out of Camp Pendleton, Calif., and are shown sitting in combat gear with the U.S. flag and a blue flag with the stylized "SS" logo hanging behind them.

The logo also appears on a 7.62mm M40 sniper rifle carried by a Marine in another photograph distributed Thursday by the Military Religious Freedom Foundation. Information embedded electronically with the image shows that it was released by the Marine Corps in 2004 and taken at the Marine Corps Air Ground Combat Center at Twentynine Palms, Calif. The two Marines in it were with the scout sniper platoon with 1st Battalion, 7th Marines.

A Marine scout sniper, right, has an 'SS' marked on his rifle in this 2004 photo. (photo: Marine Corps Times)
A Marine scout sniper, right, has an 'SS' marked on his rifle in this 2004 photo. (photo: Marine Corps Times)

Combined, the two photographs suggest that the practice has been carried out for years. The logo's use is an apparent nod to "scout sniper," a position exclusive to the Corps. The Army has scouts and snipers, but considers the positions to be separate.

"We don't have all the information, but we know enough to know the Marine Corps needs to open a full investigation," said Mikey Weinstein, the foundation's president. "If these guys just get a non-judicial punishment, it's absolutely absurd."

The SS, or Schutzstaffel, was a paramilitary organization under the Nazi Party. It committed a variety of war crimes, and was outlawed by Germany after World War II.

The inspector general at I Marine Expeditionary Force at Pendleton was made aware of the "SS" flag photograph in November, said Capt. Gregory Wolf, a spokesman at Marine Corps headquarters. The Marines involved were ordered to stop using the logo. Marine officials at the Pentagon declined to comment on whether the Marines faced any discipline, saying the issue was handled on the unit level at Pendleton.

A Marine official, speaking on background due to the sensitivity of the issue, said the Corps' leadership was not aware of the SS logo's use until it came to their attention late last year.

"We don't believe these Marine Corps snipers had a historical appreciation for what this symbol meant," the official said. "As soon as leadership was made aware of it, they took action at the unit level and then passed that information throughout the sniper community and to those snipers serving in Afghanistan."

A logo for the SS, a paramilitary force that operated under the Nazi party. (photo: Marine Corps Times)
A logo for the SS, a paramilitary force that operated under the Nazi party. (photo: Marine Corps Times)

That seems possible, said Allen Falk, national commander of the Jewish War Veterans of the United States of America.

"We believe that these young men likely did not understand the significance of this symbol, and we call on the Marine Corps to increase education on American history," he said. "This issue goes beyond one of racism or anti-Semitism. Our fellow Americans fought and died to stop the Nazis, and it is shameful for any member of the military to display the symbols of Nazi Germany."

The Corps has addressed the use of the SS logo before, however. A PowerPoint presentation posted on a Marine Corps website said it should not be used in any tattoos. The logo was used by German special police during World War II and is still used by neo-Nazis and graffiti to characterize anti-Semitism, white supremacy and facism, according to the presentation.

The MRFF said Thursday in a letter sent to Commandant Gen. Jim Amos, Defense Secretary Leon Panetta and other top Pentagon officials that it was contacted by 45 active-duty Marines concerned about the photographs.

"The implication of these photographs, if true, should be readily apparent," the letter said. "If the use of the Nazi insignia has been, in any way, condoned or tolerated by the Marine Corp.[sic], the implications are abhorrent to everything for which our country is fighting and the constitutional principles for which it stands."

 

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+48 # Holyone 2012-02-10 11:11
This is totally disgusting.Who are these people and why would they feel so comfortable displaying this kind of sign that represents hatred.

This is why it is so difficult to see Israel morroring behavior against the Palestinian people when Israel's suffering was so great under a power that displayed similar hatred and disregard for human rights.

The Palestinians are in no position to do to Israel what the Nazis did to Jews.The dynamics are quite different as well as the governmental structure.

However, these Soldiers are in a position of power. Maybe, this is why the Afgan soldiers are killing American Soldiers?

These men do no honor to the military nor to our Country.
 
 
+75 # Billy Bob 2012-02-10 12:42
Who are these people? They're our relatives and neighbors. Eventually, they'll come home and bring those attitudes with them.
 
 
+25 # Johnny 2012-02-10 13:14
Israel's suffering was not great during WWI. Israel did not even exist until 1948. The war ended in 1945. You are correct that the Israelis are doing to the Palestinians just what the Nazis did to the Jews. Evil does not respect races, religions, or national boundaries.
 
 
-19 # rayb-baby 2012-02-10 14:24
Are you as ignorant as you sound? There is no comparison between the Nazis and Israelis. If you were under a near daily attack from those that want to eliminate your country for the last 64yrs, you might respond in a somewhat harsh manner also. Although I don't support everything that Israel is doing. I do know that there is no "apartheid" or genocide occurring. If the Palestinians wanted peace, they would have it, but they turned down EVERY peace initiative offered them and attacked in response. If Israel was the same as the Nazis, Gaza and the West Bank would have been cleared out years ago and be a part of Israel today.
 
 
-15 # dorianb@fuse.net 2012-02-10 15:57
rayb-baby: Excellent statement and true.
Thank you! Do not understand the "thumbs down" on this Post.
 
 
+15 # Capn Canard 2012-02-10 16:52
rayb-baby, if Israel were the same as the Nazis then I would like to believe that Americans would have the good sense god gave them and cut off the $4 billion in funding we give these rats. And maybe, JUST MAYBE, Israel wouldn't dare attack a US Naval ship like they did during the 6 Day War when on June 8th, 1967, the Israeli Air Force attacked and killed 34 American(31 USS Liberty sailors, 2 Marines and one civilian while injuring 170). How do you like your Israelis now? Or there is the constant spying like that stinking rat fink Jonathan Pollard spying for Israel while working with American Military Intelligence in the wonderful Reagan era of the 1980's. Nice. That is how our good friend Israel repays America. And then there are the countless people who ignore reality, count yourself amongst them. Please, why do you hate America? I am tired of Israel. Time to let them sink or swim on their own.
 
 
+16 # Bob-Investigates 2012-02-11 17:11
I was in the Navy when the attack on the Liberty happened. The incident was covered-up by our own government! The ship's markings and American flag were clearly visible. So, the attack was deliberate! TO THIS DAY, THE ISRAELIS WHO ORDERED THE ATTACK AND THE MILITARY PERSONNEL WHO CARRIED IT OUT HAVE NOT BEEN HELD ACCOUNTABLE! Every American should be asking "why!" AND, "Capn Canard" is right about Pollard and other outrages carried out against our country.
 
 
+10 # John Gill 2012-02-11 17:58
No, not genocide. Nothing so large scale. Murders motivated by racial and religious hatred, yes, and those on both sides. Apartheid, on the other hand, is an entirely different matter. I don't know where you get your information, but you must be aware that Apartheid was a system of segregation inflicted by the white South African minority upon the black South African majority during pretty much the last half of the 20th Century. Those hateful policies also deprived of equal treatment residents of East Indian descent and Jewish South Africans too, by the way. If Israel's criminal treatment of the Palestinian people does not in many respects mirror, and in some ways even surpass the South African policies of Apartheid in terms of discrimination by law, limited access to services, economic privation, human rights violations, and general brutality, I don't know what does. In fact, yes. I have never before been tempted to make this comparison, but Israel's anti Palestinian policies are actually VERY reminiscent of enforced Jewish ghetto policies by the Nazis BEFORE policies of genocide were in force. I really wish people would get it, that opposing and speaking out against crimes being committed at this present time, by the state of Israel, against the Palestinian people, is really IN NO WAY somehow supporting crimes committed in the past by European Fascists, against European Jews. Really.
 
 
-17 # uglysexy 2012-02-10 15:10
Excuse me but the Israelis are not mirroring Nazi Practices...they are toe to toe with an existential threat and heavily outnumbered. Please refer to the subsidizers of hezbollah, and others, in Iran and their Statements of the past few weeks and longer. Khamenei and Ahmahdinejad have, repeatedly, asserted that they will wipe Israel off the Map and leave it in the dustbin of History. Khamenei also called Israel a Cancerous Tumor that will be removed as recently as last week. Israel is a tiny country and has done far less of projection of power vs Muslims than the United States has though Israel is faced with a Much greater existential threat than the U.S. is by comparison. Take off Your phoney Pacifist, Veiled Anti Semitic Glasses and see the world the way it really is
 
 
+17 # Glen 2012-02-10 15:55
UglySexy, Israel is not alone in the world. They have the U.S. and billions of U.S. dollars and weapons to support them. It might be of interest for you to research the history of the establishment of Israel as a Jewish only colony, and their aggression against neighbors in establishing their supremacy. Same as in the old testament. Kill in the name of god and the chosen ones.

That is not anti-semitism. It is reality.
 
 
+21 # Capn Canard 2012-02-10 17:13
If you knew the history of early Israel in more detail I doubt that you would be so quick to defend the actions Israel. They took Palestine by telling the Palestinians that they should leave because war was coming and they didn't want the Palestinians to be killed. They tried to reassure these Palestinians that they could return to Palestine after the war. So the Palestinians left expecting to come back. When the Palestinians did come back home, several months later, they were told this wasn't their land any longer. These Palestinians(Mu slim or Coptic Christian) were now homeless. This land was now ZION, THE NEW ISRAEL. Not surprisingly, since this time the Arabs have been really pissed at Zionist Israel. However, I don't believe JUDAISM is at fault, it is ZIONISM that is too blame. All an illegal land grab rationalized as a payment, a bribe, hush money for not protecting the European Jewry during the HOLOCAUST. Yes, like much of human history it is VERY UGLY indeed.
 
 
+4 # CTPatriot 2012-02-11 14:02
Only made worse by Israel's continued oppression of the Palestinians and expansion into Palestinian land in the West Bank and Jerusalem. This has nothing to do with existential threats and everything to do with Zionist religiously motivated goals of returning ALL of "Israel" to the Jews.

I would note that many of those Zionists are Christians who share the same goal for a different reason. Theirs is so that armagedon can commence and lead to Jesus' return to earth.
 
 
+8 # RMDC 2012-02-11 16:24
Why is anyone talking about Israel. This has nothing to do with Israel. It is about US marines and other elite forces who have always taken the SS as their model. The marines are a cult of death and that is precisely what the SS were. They are all brothers. Marines know this. If the average american on the street does not know this it is because he is just stupid. Americans just don't know that their own military is as genocidal as anything put together by Hitler and the Nazis. Since the end of WW II, the americans have murdered many, many millions of people all over the world. It would be impossible to count them all, but certainly the number of people killed by America's military exceeds 100 million. Who gives a shit about some SS insignia. That is what they are. We should not need to see the SS sign to know this. We should de-militarize the US. Throw these little skin-heads in jail.
 
 
0 # Ray Kondrasuk 2012-02-14 19:27
uglysexy @ 15:10

Yet another tedious allegation about Ahmadinjad's "wipe Israel off the map" threat from his October 2005 speech in Tehran. True, his pronouncements at times may be buffoonishly belligerent, but this isn't one of them. The initial poor translation of that supposed "wipe Israel" statement in his native Farsi quickly withers under academic scrutiny; the Persian words for any sense of "wipe/destroy/eliminate" or "Israel" or "off the map/off the face of the earth" simply do not appear. Instead, distinguished linguists concur on the most accurate translation: "The regime occupying Jerusalem shall vanish/disappear from the pages of time/history". Citing a clarifying parallel the with collapse of the Soviet Union, Ahmadinejad means that the Zionist apartheid subjugation of occupied Palestine will inevitably fall: not by marching armies nor massive bombardment, but by the rising of its conquered peoples to their own self-determination.
 
 
+2 # conniejo 2012-02-13 08:52
If displaying the SS symbol was an intentional action by these marines, shame on them. If it was a lack of education, that scares me even more. If you can see the blight, it is easier to fight it. A failure to learn history's lessons because of a poor education in the long run will be much more damaging to the country. This is exactly why the corporatocracy is intent on destroying public education. Ignorant people are much easier to manipulate into turning on one another. Education is the only way we can get the vast majority of people to recognize the real enemies and to rise against them. There is a long, hard battle ahead, and we must remain vigilant. This shameful display is an opportunity for education. I hope we will use it as than rather than automatically vilifying these young men who may not have understood what they were doing. However, if they really are just bad apples, get them out of the bushel so they cannot infect other around them. The marines need to look into this and take the appropriate action to remove or reeducation these people.
 
 
+55 # danigo 2012-02-10 11:32
Why should this be surprising? Is it not the only appropriate symbol for what these units do?
 
 
+4 # dorianb@fuse.net 2012-02-11 16:18
danigo: The Marines displaying SS NAZI symbols denigrated the American military & the memory of the millions of Jews who suffered the horrors of "The Holocaust" &/or were exterminated by Hitler's NAZI regime.
 
 
-4 # William Bjornson 2012-02-12 19:13
You might want to study the issue just a bit, that is, the so-called holocaust of the so-called Jews. You could most profitably start with the horse's mouth, Benjamin Freedman, a new york banking family scion. He will tell you on youtube why the Germans were so angry with te jews. Then, if you really have an interest, you might start reading about zionism. The zionists were at least as responsible for the large number of jews who were 'transported' as were the krauts. Documented. Try Lenni Brenner (a Jew): "51 Documents, Zionist Collaboration with the Nazis". There is much much more.

If the israelis could get away with it, there would not be a Palestinian left on the planet. Hatred and slaughter are commonalities to all humans and not least of all the eastern Europeans known as khazari from whom zionism has arisen. These Marines are doing THEIR filthy work because YOU do not read history. If you read history, you'd be sharpening your pitchfork and fueling your torch and we'd all be marching on the fed and goldman sucks and we'd applaud these guys for every israeli they 'retired'. The propaganda structure built by these people in America is starting to collapse and when the truth of these people finally is revealed to Americans, there will be many innocent Jews who will suffer because of the zionists, just like in Germany. Maybe worse. We are less forgiving. The average American Jew is even more propagandized than the goyim and we will ALL suffer for it.
 
 
+2 # artful 2012-02-10 11:40
What's that old saying . . ." once a marine, always stupid"?
 
 
+17 # bugbuster 2012-02-10 12:09
I'm not a flag waver or a militarist. I served in the Navy to avoid being drafted into the Army or the Marines.

That said, your remark was uncalled for and betrayed a profound ignorance. Navy boot camp and Marine boot camp were across the fence from each other. I watched what those guys went through. A stupid person might manage to complete Army boot camp or even Navy boot camp, but not Marine boot camp.

You may not like the Marines, and not all of them may be good people, but they have accomplished something that most of us could never do. It takes brains, strength, courage, and intense cooperation with their comrades to do that.

What I fear is their understandable reaction to people dissing them when they know better.

The stupidest thing a society could ever do is alienate its all-volunteer military.
 
 
+55 # Billy Bob 2012-02-10 12:44
I had a brother who served in the Marines during Vietnam. He went in, an asshole. He came out, a dangerous asshole.

Now, he's a nice guy and has set his ego aside, because he's too old to put up the pretense of being a badass any longer.
 
 
+35 # bugbuster 2012-02-10 13:07
I too believe that the experiences changes a man. But as you say, it doesn't change a man's basic character. A young man with those skills may not have the judgment to match. That's a risk. We rely on Corps discipline.

Recruiters no doubt feel pressure to fill quotas and may sign up marginal people. There is yet another reason among many why I strongly favor reinstating the draft and establishing an alternative National Service.
 
 
+22 # Billy Bob 2012-02-10 16:28
My brother enlisted. His recruiter told him he'd spend most of his time training dogs. Recruiters are nothing but used car salesmen. Concerning discipline. I don't think there was any discipline about how not to be an asshole. Boot camp back then sounds like it was a lot like "Lord of the Flies". Maybe one of the skills taught should have something to do with understanding basic tenets of humanity.

I really do think we need to reinstate the draft. These phony wars for profit couldn't stand the light of day.
 
 
-4 # William Bjornson 2012-02-12 19:28
Your "basic tenets of humanity" are and always have been to try to kill and eat the group next door. Even the little history you have been exposed to is nothing but war after war after war. We celebrate war. We spend more resources on war than on any other pursuit including eating and screwing. Your brother below (dorian) has clearly never heard of the native American nor knows anything at all about the Germans but will be the first to demand blood when the time comes. A Marine is trained (literally brainwashed) to obey orders using well tried and proven techniques handed down from the mists of history. A Marine is not trained to kill, per se, but to have no regard for anything labeled by his authorities as 'enemy' except to 'pacify' it by whatever means necessary. We have serious 'enemies' right here at home and when we are all finally on the same page as to who they are and start to do something about them, you'll be glad to have a Marine on your side. Marc Ash will recommend a book to you in this regard called "The Host and the Parasite" as he is cited in the book as a source. And it's not just Jews.
 
 
+5 # Billy Bob 2012-02-12 20:15
Could you clarify your points?

On the one hand, you seem to be saying that Marines are only taught to exterminate without asking questions.

On the other hand, you seem to be saying that I should be damn well happy about that fact.

We aren't really in a war in the Middle-East. We are in a situation of policing the world to keep the oil flowing. Cops at home without a conscience or personal stake in the lives of civilians are a menace to society. Marines with the same attitude are a menace to our country and the entire world.

Yes, they are brainwashed. I think that allowing some of the brainwash to be deprogrammed out of them would make them BETTER soldiers, EVEN IF, it meant that some of them might start to think for themselves.

The risk of training Marines capable of human thought is a risk I'd be willing to take for a change.
 
 
+8 # dorianb@fuse.net 2012-02-10 16:11
Billy Bob: You're right when you say a skill essential for people serving in the military under the jurisdiction of a democratic government is, "understanding basic tenets of humanity".

Basic tenets of humanity were ignored & trampled upon by the NAZI's.
 
 
+12 # reiverpacific 2012-02-10 17:00
Quoting
I had a brother who served in the Marines during Vietnam. He went in, an asshole. He came out, a dangerous asshole.

Now, he's a nice guy and has set his ego aside, because he's too old to put up the pretense of being a badass any longer.

Heh-heh; I like it!
 
 
+32 # Johnny 2012-02-10 13:11
No, the stupidest thing a democratic society could ever do is HAVE an all-volunteer military.
 
 
+61 # bugbuster 2012-02-10 11:55
This is the risk we take with an all-volunteer military. It becomes a separate society. I have no problem imagining red state guns from the hinterland being turned on troublesome folks on the coasts.

For its own good, the US should either have a conscripted military or no military at all.
 
 
+37 # Billy Bob 2012-02-10 12:45
AMEN. If we can't have a draft then we need to question what we're trying to accomplish.
 
 
+7 # Glen 2012-02-10 13:02
What, exactly, are we trying to accomplish, Billy, and how would the draft achieve that goal?
 
 
+39 # bugbuster 2012-02-10 13:17
When you have the draft, it is more difficult to wage unpopular wars. Everybody pays attention because they know people in the military, and they worry about them.
 
 
-8 # Glen 2012-02-10 14:34
As I have said before: this is not the U.S. of the Vietnam era. This country's government and military are far more powerful and unforgiving. If the draft is reinstated, it will never be rescinded. It will set in cement the agenda of this country, and the military will draw on innocent citizens to carry out their never ending war against the planet unless a group of countries band together to end it. Citizens will then be at the mercy of the military, rather than volunteering.

No protest against the draft will end in abolishing it. It will end in citizens being brutalized further.
 
 
+11 # Billy Bob 2012-02-10 16:33
This is the first time I think I've ever disagreed with you about anything. So bear that in mind. I think our country isn't beyond hope yet. We still have the power, at least on paper, to overturn the worst elements of our government. The problem is that conservatives vote and there are too many conservatives with too many psychotic beliefs.

If we have the draft, the phony wars for profit become the front burner issue. Political careers are at stake. If our government decides to go the extra few inches and become a totalitarian police state under marshall law, then at least we know we have some people on the inside who haven't been indoctrinated.
 
 
+3 # Glen 2012-02-12 10:45
If you are still out there reading through this, Billy, I'll add a bit to my post:
When I say this is not the country of the Vietnam era, I mean not only the country at large, but the government. The neo-conservatives and PNAC were still in the cradle during that period, but then came full flower. Our government has never been totally above reproach, but the levels of influence and increasing militarization, not to mention Israel, has taken over the agenda of this government and the intent. There is little concern for the serious problems among citizens, much less the citizens themselves. Natural resources, control, and dominion are number one over citizens.

I am not willing to lose any more lives than already being lost to attempt proving a new draft will help end wars. Too many are profiting for these adventures. If the draft is reinstated, many many more lives will be lost. Should citizens object in a serious manner, there will be brutalization far beyond what you've seen with the OWS movement. That's the other change - the militarization of police.

This government is not that far above what we are seeing in Syria.
 
 
0 # Billy Bob 2012-02-12 12:00
I gave you a thumbs up for your argument. I almost entirely agree.

I just don't think MORE lives would be lost. Different lives would be lost. We don't have a shortage of troops as it is, we just have a shortage of reasons to keep doing this to them. Stop-loss measures or whatever, are just an excuse to avoid drafting people. We wouldn't have 2 million people in Afghanistan anyway. We have the number they think we need.

Concerning OWS brutalization. Our all volunteer army are the ones most willing to do the brutalizing. They're the ones who've bought into the propaganda 100%. Right now, we have NOTHING to keep them in check, other than the hope that our government and these lunatics won't use all of that, now legal, power against us.
 
 
+3 # Glen 2012-02-12 16:25
I'm confused, Billy. Are you saying that those "different lives" are less valuable because they are from another class? That doesn't sound like what I have read of your posts. It isn't the volunteer military that has been brutalizing citizens of late, unless there are a few out there, it is cops that have been in place for quite some time. That is not to say those in the military today would not brutalize. It is to say that the cop attitude and the militarization of same, is out there already. Hell, the FBI and CIA are more than willing to brutalize, and have. Even U.S. citizens. Never think citizens have the power.
 
 
-2 # Billy Bob 2012-02-12 19:28
Ok. That was a lot to swallow. A little at a time:

-About them being a different class: Right now, with the volunteer army, a disproportionat e number of them are from lower class families. If there was a draft, class wouldn't figure into the equation. If it did, like it did in the early Vietnam years, it would become even MORE unpopular.

I don't think it matters if 5,000 American lives are lost from one class or another. Five thousand Americans are five thousand Americans. It wouldn't be one of my kids, right now. Because I wouldn't allow my kids to fall for the b.s. If there was a draft, ALL OF US would be fair game. ALL OF US WOULD BE IN THIS THING.

Who's fighting these multiple "wars" for profit anyway? Exxon? or the U.S.? It seems to me that Exxon is the country waging war, but America is supplying the corpses.

If there was a draft, there'd be NO mistake who was fighting and dying. We'd ALL BE IN THIS TOGETHER.

So, I'm saying that ALL American lives are too precious to just brush under the rug and be made invisible.

---------

It IS most certainly our volunteer army who are doing the brutalizing. Who do you think works in these police departments? Ask the asshole who lives right next door to me who was bragging about breaking up an OWS protest and how easy it was. He's on a SWAT team. A few years ago, he was doing the same thing in Afghanistan as a "contractor".

CONT.
 
 
+7 # Billy Bob 2012-02-12 19:34
CONT.

Afghanistan is a training ground for many of the cops you see on the streets right now, as of this very moment.

Also, what do you think the end of posse comitatus means, if not the fact that those guns are potentially pointed at ALL of our heads? As in, "Step outta line, the man come and take you away"...

I don't think U.S. citizens have the power to win by force. I never said that. We hardly have the power to peacefully protest.

BUT, inspite of diebold, we DO STILL have the power to VOTE. If you don't believe our votes count for anything at all, then what's the point of even complaining anymore? If that's the case, then all is lost already and we might as well just pack our bags and get out while the gettin's good.

I don't think that.
 
 
+1 # Glen 2012-02-13 05:19
1. It appears your message is mixed: on the one hand we should be protesting the wars, but on the other accepting a draft that would draw from many Americans that are already suffering. Thousands don't support the wars and would never volunteer regardless of their income at the moment. They are struggling to even eat, some of them.

2. Why should all of us be in this thing? If all lives are precious, why offer up any more? It is bad enough that the government is pulling this shit on us anyway.

3. Ex-military has always been mixed in with cops. The most brutal cops I've ever seen were ex-military, even those that were in during periods of no conflict. What I meant was that the majority of cops are not veterans of Afghanistan or wherever. They are long time cops, many with no military experience at all. They have now been militarized. As you have always said: look out for the time when these people do come home from the Middle East.

4. Your mentioning the posse comitatus proves my point about how brutal the government and cops would be if there is a draft and citizens rise in anger. So if there is anger at involvement over a draft, what then?

5. Voting is a small part of a democratic republic. Participation is a hallmark of a true democracy. There is little, in spite of OWS. Only a handful can afford to run for office. This country is too big for a true democracy.
 
 
-2 # Billy Bob 2012-02-13 09:06
I'm disagreeing with you a lot more than I've been letting on.

I don't really think we should re-instate the draft. OF COURSE I DON'T. I have kids too!

That said, I honestly don't know what's going to happen that could ever put an end to this. What I really think is a lot nastier than the possibility of a draft:

I propose that these wars will become PERMANENT until there isn't enough oil left in the Middle-East to make murdering people for it profitable. That will take at least another 50 years.

Around 2070, the world will start saying, "Gee, maybe there IS something to all of this 'global warming stuff'! Maybe we should start to use alternative fuels, duuuhhhhhh!...."

The only reason we'll come to that conclusion is that there just won't be enough oil left. Of course, by then, we'll be worried about 140-degree temperatures in the Midwest or the possibility of tipping the Ocean's balance and causing a global ice age.

CONT.
 
 
+1 # Glen 2012-02-13 11:10
Ah. OK. You are quite clear and I agree with everything you have added here. My immediate family and slight extended family are all preparing for the future in one way or another. Easier for me due to living practically in the middle of nowhere and wishing it were farther out. Easy to store food, grow food, etc. Of course, that is no guarantee of anything, but we all must prepare in our own way.

The only thing I do disagree with you on, is that it will come sooner than 2070. Is happening today, and governments are not unaware of what is coming. Both the U.S. and Britain began preparing for citizen unrest due to economic considerations and food, during George W.'s administration, and we are seeing the results today. Once again, I do believe we are headed for world war and there is no predicting how it will be waged. Already there is cyber war and economic war, probably be chaos beforehand.

Protecting communities and coming up with some sort of plan in preparation for what may come, is extremely important. That is why I do not fail to speak out on issues at the school or any other insidious or blatant offenses against folks in this area. Not to say I am any bit of a shit stirrer.

What do you think will be your course of action in preparing for the future?
 
 
0 # Billy Bob 2012-02-13 16:42
The reason I said 2070 is that we have enough oil to last that long. THAT IS NOT A GOOD THING. I wish we were out of oil 20 years ago. If we were, we'd be energy independant right now. Of course, we'd have to be out of coal too and that's not even close to happening yet. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS CLEAN COAL.

If we want to fix this before it's too late we have to CONTROL the government rather than the other way around and we need Democrats in office who really are the way Obama pretended to be.

I agree that we will suffer environmental consequences well before 2070. We're already seeing it. But, I think that oil will be drained as long as they can get away with it.

My course of action is a lot less prepared than yours. Short of having money, a sutainable farm, or an arsenal, I think the most important thing is for us to change our society so that, WHEN IT HAPPENS (it's no longer a matter of "if"), we will work together as though we were a civilization.
 
 
0 # Glen 2012-02-14 06:07
Ah, I gotcha. Of course, running out of oil means changes in more than just a source of energy and maintaining a vehicle. Look around the house and city to see where oil is the base of thousands of objects. A sudden end to all of that would bring a lot more than just panic, and it will be sudden because nobody is preparing within these companies or elsewhere. (Heck, when the electricity was out across two states due to a serious ice storm, by the end of the first week folks were threatening office workers in utility offices, two linemen were shot, and after the second was shot the gunman shot himself.)

It would be ideal to control the government, but consider who you are up against besides billionaires: corporations, the military, CIA, Israel, world economy, etc. It is not a simple matter to wish for a small, easily controlled government. The mechanism has changed mightily and the international involvement is not to be sneezed at, and the U.S. population is growing almost daily.

Better prepare, "just in case". Folks can do what they can and are comfortable with, but communities and individuals are at least a remaining form of democracy and work together to protect themselves.

Guess we should end this thread. RSN just might stretch past what may be handled on the page. We can pick up in another thread under an article with a similar subject, and you can bet there will be another!
 
 
-2 # Billy Bob 2012-02-13 09:07
CONT.

Because of GREEDY INACTION, be prepared for WORLD WIDE FAMINE. Be prepared for many of the hardships to hit home RIGHT HERE IN AMERICA.

Cheney and his clan are hoarding wealth and ammunition as we speak. The wheels are in motion to turn our government over to them so we can't get any of it back. This is GOING TO GET A LOT UGLIER than a draft that could potentially stop it in its tracks.

The only thing I actually disagree about is the idea that the draft would cause more American deaths. It's not a moral disagreement. It's more of a mathematical / logistical one.
 
 
-2 # Billy Bob 2012-02-13 09:10
I made a typo. I meant:

"I'm disagreeing with you a lot LESS than I'm letting on."

I also could have said, "I'm agreeing with you a lot MORE than I'm letting on".

I thought about both versions, and accidentally edited myself into saying the opposite of what I meant.
 
 
+7 # Capn Canard 2012-02-10 17:27
The 1950-70s aren't so different save mass communications: broadcast, cell phone, internet etc. To the best of my knowledge the draft was changed because of a very unpopular war. If the US didn't have 57,000 killed but only had 570 killed do you think they would've eliminated the draft? I doubt it... I believe it was the failure of leadership that led to ending the draft. If the draft were still in place I believe we would still have had the Gulf War(1991), but I am not convinced Shrub could've pulled off the Iraq war(2003-2011), though maybe the War in Afghanistan, maybe.
 
 
+1 # Glen 2012-02-12 10:47
So, you are saying we must lost thousands more people in order to stir resentment and protests against war and the government? You are forgetting the number of outsiders in these wars, mercenaries, corporations, and all else. I am totally against the draft, and as I say, it would NEVER be rescinded.
 
 
-3 # Billy Bob 2012-02-12 12:01
We just need to lose the same number of people, but from families who didn't buy into this in the first place.
 
 
+2 # Glen 2012-02-12 16:28
Damn, Billy, that is callous. Surely you know those "families who didn't buy into this in the first place" are not less worthy, much less human.

It ain't gonna happen anyway. They will be exempt, as usual.
 
 
-2 # Billy Bob 2012-02-12 19:47
I never said that. You're puting words in my mouth. This has nothing to do with "worthiness".

Are you suggesting that a million American lives can be lost and countless foreign lives for a war that NOBODY WANTS, but it's ok to let it continue indefinitelly because, at least the corpses were volunteers?

What's callous is accepting that these wars have no end in sight. That's what sweeping them under the rug allows. Without the draft, our country has been able to sweep them under the rug.

You asked me earlier, "What are we trying to accomplish?"

GREAT QUESTION. I don't know. Well, actually, I DO know. "We" are trying to ensure that all that oil keeps flowing out of the Middle-East at a hefty profit for the oil cartell. THAT'S WHAT ALL THESE DEAD BODIES ARE PAYING FOR.

NOW, how much has that fact hit home?

The real answer is that, "Who cares? It ain't MY kids." is what most Americans are saying right now.

The draft would change that.

You're right though. It won't happen anyway. My point isn't about what's likely to happen. My point is about what COULD be done to force people to deal with the reality of a morally indefensible war for profit.

It won't be done. That said, WHAT WILL BE DONE?
 
 
0 # Glen 2012-02-13 05:30
Having a draft will not prove that there are citizens against these bogus wars. They already are, but they have no real say in the matter, and would not if there were a draft. Everybody I know, regardless of silly party affiliation is against the wars and the spending on the military. They are angry about a lot of things, but as I say, they have no say in all this. There is never a vote for or against war. Representatives , for the most part go along with it. Those that object are taken down by those who are following the agenda.

Not much will be done, Billy. Folks had a lot of hope in Obama to fix it all, and you see how wrong they were. The wars are expanding even as I type.
 
 
-1 # Glen 2012-02-13 05:43
P.S. I don't know exactly why you are getting thumbs down in the discussion. They aren't mine. Your points are well taken, and understandable. Glad you comment on some of the threads, to keep things in perspective.
 
 
-4 # Billy Bob 2012-02-13 08:56
Whoever was giving me negatives was probably the same people doing it to you. They don't like the tone of the entire conversation sometimes.

These things go in waves. A few months ago, there was an article that was attacked by right-wing thumbs. Who cares, really? None of them bothered to comment.

I don't take it too personally anyway. These are political opinions. If you find someone who agrees with you about this stuff ALL of the time, marry them quick!
 
 
+2 # Glen 2012-02-13 11:13
What a dull marriage that would be! RSN posters are more willing now to engage in back to back discussions rather than a mere comment or the thumb thing, which is good. Many folks here have much to contribute.

And yes, this is, after all, the internet. None of us have a clue about each other, but there is freedom in that. Keep on keeping on.
 
 
-3 # conniejo 2012-02-13 09:05
Billy Bob,

Take some comfort in the fact that some of us understand what you are saying. It's like that scene in Michael Moore's movie, when he stops politicians outside of Congress and asks them if their sons and daughters are going to fight. If their kids could be drafted, these wars would end soon.
 
 
0 # Billy Bob 2012-02-13 16:54
Thank you. I don't always express myself well. Sometimes, these threads and the requirement to write it out, forces me to think these things through more thoroughly.

It's nice when someone can cut right through my strange way of puting things and understand me anyway.
 
 
+6 # bugbuster 2012-02-10 13:11
I wish I'd thought to say that.
 
 
+17 # Interested Observer 2012-02-10 13:26
Just wait until it becomes a collection pure corporate armies (mercenaries to use the archaic and politically incorrect term) each loyal to its CEO.
 
 
-2 # Capn Canard 2012-02-10 17:17
bugbuster, I agree with you and Johnny. The all volunteer military gives rationale to use the military like pawns in a game of chess. They are many so you can more easily waste some in a campaign.
 
 
+36 # Kasandra 2012-02-10 12:16
A good excuse to say these young men didn't know the difference. I think they DID known the difference--And very well. The truth is that a lot of the military tactics resemble the aura of the flag. If not, why would these "stupid" soldiers do it? It's obvious theye related the "symbol" because it reflected their war-like mind-set!
 
 
+16 # dorianb@fuse.net 2012-02-10 14:24
Good comment, Kasandra! Very insightful.
But, bare in mind, the NAZI symbol is first and foremost a symbol of human beings behaving in the most despicable and inhumane manner known in history.
 
 
+38 # rongcro 2012-02-10 12:16
Is it possible a few American neo-Nazi joined the U.S. Marines, thinking no one would recognize the
SS symbol? That it lasted as long as it did without someone blowing the whistle is amazing.
 
 
-38 # rom120 2012-02-10 12:16
First and foremost, the writer of this article should get his history straight.
At the beginning the SS was a paramilitary police force and then parts of it continued as police. However the largest part of the SS were elite fighting soldiers!! Unquestionably if not the best, then among the best fighters in WW2. Check out REAL history to learn about it and don't believe the Jewish Hollywood spin. Just because a nation is defeated does not mean it's soldiers are criminals. The killing of Bin Laden, had this been carried out by the SS would be condemned by the world still now. However the Navy Seals are heroes and so were the SS soldiers.
Atrocities happen in every war, same as in civilian life, there criminals in every military, or have you never heard what American soldiers did to civilians, old people, women and children in Iraq and Afghanistan (not to mention to Germans during and after the war).
I rest my case.
 
 
+27 # Todd Williams 2012-02-10 12:45
You rest your case on the bodies of millions of dead Jews, you damn Nazi appologizer! Go ahead and rewrite history. The Waffen SS were dangerous psycopaths who carried out Hitler's demented plans to ravage the world. How dare you compare the Navy SEALs to the Waffen SS. You ought to be ashamed of yourself!
 
 
-10 # Johnny 2012-02-10 13:09
Obviously you never met a veteran of the Waffen SS. If you did, you would know they were ordinary people like you. They were not even especially "elite." They were soldiers with rifles and helmets, and fear, just like the U.S. soldiers in WWII. The Navy Seals are much worse, because they are especially selected for their enjoyment of killing human beings and for their unthinking obedience to orders to murder, like attack dogs.
 
 
-5 # dorianb@fuse.net 2012-02-11 17:22
Todd: GOD bless you for writing the most historically correct, heart-rendering and courageous comment on this Post.

You replied to rom120: "How dare you compare the Navy SEALS to the Waffen SS. you ought to be ashamed of yourself!"
 
 
+26 # Jim Rocket 2012-02-10 13:08
WOW! More like fanatic butchers. Big difference between the SS and regular German forces. Atrocities were their stock in trade to inflict terror and just for fun. Why shoot one resistance member when you can slaughter the whole town?
 
 
+3 # Johnny 2012-02-10 16:17
"The men the American people admire most extravagantly are the greatest liars: the men they detest most violently are those who try to tell them the truth." - - H. L. Mencken - (1880-1956) American Journalist, Editor, Essayist,
 
 
+8 # Johnny 2012-02-10 16:18
Quoting
WOW! More like fanatic butchers. Big difference between the SS and regular German forces. Atrocities were their stock in trade to inflict terror and just for fun. Why shoot one resistance member when you can slaughter the whole town?

Like My Lai? Homs? Al-Faluja? Deir Yasin? Qana? Al-Duwaima?
 
 
+16 # bugbuster 2012-02-10 13:10
Experienced readers of Internet forums know that when a post begins with rudeness, its content will lack any value. The truth speaks for itself most powerfully when presented dispassionately .
 
 
+10 # cadan 2012-02-10 13:55
This is true, but the Nazis, and how similar or different we are from them, are a very sensitive subject, so they generate a strong response.

We think we are clearly better than they, and in some sense, in our latest wars we are. We may kill millions (through wrecking infrastructure) , but it is collateral, not through focused, deliberate, hateful targeting. (Our 19th century treatment of American Indians and our slaves of course has to qualify as as bad as deliberately murdering millions based on their race, because it was deliberately murdering or enslaving millions because of their race.)

So although we are better than the Nazis, our actions are quite arguably worse than many notorious dictatorships of the 20th century, where millions might die in state-induced famines, but not as a result of unnecessary wars.
 
 
-7 # Johnny 2012-02-10 16:19
You obviously know absolutely nothing about either WWI, the Vietnam War, or the present war against Iraq.
 
 
+10 # cadan 2012-02-10 17:24
Well, i think the Nazis were genuinely worse than we have been, in the 20th century. In countries that they invaded, such as Poland, they really did ethnic cleansing by lethal means (3 million Polish Jews---the entire population of that group---were murdered).

We also killed, coincidentally, 3 million in Viet Nam (probably more as a consequence of infrastructure destruction). But it was a targeted move towards annihilation. (Likewise for Iraq and Libya --- our motive there may really be to keep the Middle East permanently destabilized and full of strife. And i think we should call off the Crusades. But even there we are not systematically killing entire populations by design.)

So i'm not saying that we are good, because we are emphatically not. We are an empire in decline, perhaps irreversibly.

But i am saying that the Nazis were worse (which is not such a strong statement, of course).
 
 
+10 # Capn Canard 2012-02-10 17:39
cadan, very well said. It is really disappointing to see that many Americans forget the crimes of our forefathers. We have the blood of a enslaved people on our hands and then the very land we live on once belonged to some forgotten peoples! Stolen from them with promises of payment that were rarely if ever intended to be kept.
 
 
-3 # dorianb@fuse.net 2012-02-10 16:22
Bugbuster and BillyBob: There's a lot of hateful rants on this post and anti-semitism keeps rearing it's ugly head.
 
 
+12 # Billy Bob 2012-02-10 17:26
Keep in mind that anti-semitism isn't the same thing as being anti-Israeli policy. Not all Jews are militant pro-Israelis either. The "anti-semitism" cry is a bit disingenuous. Look up the definition of "semitic". It applies to all people of Middle-Eastern descent. In fact, it applies to Palestinians more than it applies to the Israeli population, because most Israelis are at least partially European in descent.
 
 
+23 # John Gill 2012-02-10 13:24
I acknowledge that the majority of the SS were just very well trained soldiers, yes, and some of the very best in the war, indeed, if not "the best." Also,only a minority were directly involved in war crimes associated with the brand, but the brand IS the point. Most people when thinking of the SS think of the dress black uniform, the skull and crossbones insignia, and the incredibly, disgusting and inhumane behavior of that minority of the SS who oversaw the death camps. Hey, I get it! Boys love a cool uniform, and most, at some point in their lives, dream of becoming a serious bad-ass, and you don't get flashier than the SS. But the evils of the SS are mythic in our society. These kids grew up on Raiders of the Lost Ark. Scarcely a year goes by that Hollywood doesn't come out with a new film exploiting the horrors of the holocaust. Is there a Zionist agenda? Sure, but that doesn't mean the holocaust didn't happen. Sadly, the hatred of Jews is still rife in our nation, and what is really pathetic is that most of these kids who think they hate Jews have never even met one. The point is, it doesn't matter that the Waffen SS were fine soldiers. These kids are sporting a brand associated with inhumanity, racism and evil. That being said, what is war all about, anyway, and perhaps these young soldiers are guilty of nothing more than assuming ownership of their present condition.
 
 
+4 # Johnny 2012-02-10 16:21
The source of hate for Jews these days is that the propaganda of Zionism attributes the crimes to Jews as Jews, rather than to the political movement of Zionism. It is like blaming White Folks for the sins of the Ku Klux Klan instead of blaming the Klan. Unfortunately, many people believe the Zionist propaganda.
 
 
-2 # John Gill 2012-02-11 18:11
Oh no you didn't! The hatred of the Jews is a Zionist plot? Come on, man.
 
 
+37 # Interested Observer 2012-02-10 13:36
My father saw the work of the SS first hand as a U.S. soldier in Europe. I am not a Jew. The SS was not involved in a few atrocities, it was employed as a primary resource to implement the premeditated execution of millions of non-combatants, some in the field (often with willing local assistance), some in the industrialized death camps, some after being worked to death as slaves, and a few tortured to death in medical experiments. No fog of war obscures or mitigates their crimes.
 
 
+5 # dorianb@fuse.net 2012-02-10 14:28
rom120: Before you rest your case, would you please explain what you mean by the
"Jewish Hollywood spin"? I have never heard this term until now. Thank You!
 
 
+46 # BobbyLip 2012-02-10 12:30
The SS "committed a variety of war crimes." Well, we fit right into that unholy tradition, do we not? Torture, targeting civilians, invading countries that offer no threat, all war crimes. I'm prepared to believe that a bunch of twenty-something kids don't know what they're playing with; it's our leaders who need to be investigated and brought to justice.
 
 
+40 # Billy Bob 2012-02-10 12:42
Just today, the principle in the grade school where I send my daughter to kindergarden asked us to supply "favorite books" to be read via teleconference by Marines in Afghanistan. The kids will send a care package later this year.

I was in kindergarden during Vietnam. I don't remember this kind of shameless recruiting type propaganda.

I'm really tired of it and I want my country back.
 
 
+27 # Glen 2012-02-10 13:08
I agree, Billy. Recruitment efforts are some of the most offensive methods of sucking even 5 year olds into militaristic thinking, if in a benign mode. The military is more and more apparent in schools all over the U.S., and without parental notification or permission.

The draft would not end that. It would make it worse. We should fight the militaristic society at large.
 
 
+17 # bugbuster 2012-02-10 13:22
Our society became anything but militaristic when 50,000 Americans died in Vietnam. Quite the opposite. That's what got the draft abolished. Now we need to get it back to relearn the old lessons.
 
 
+10 # lorenbliss 2012-02-10 13:54
Au contraire, bugbuster. What got the draft abolished was the Ruling Class awakening to the fact it was training the Revolution...
 
 
-2 # Johnny 2012-02-10 16:23
There is nothing inconsistent in what you say with what the bugbuster wrote. You both are correct.
 
 
+8 # Billy Bob 2012-02-10 17:31
You're right. Everyone needs to watch the movie: "SIR! NO SIR!". It's the best Vietnam documentary I've ever seen, and it's completely about setting the record straight about what soldiers in Vietnam really felt. They weren't as pro war as is being painted by the history revisionists. Many of them were actively protesting. The draft STRENGTHENED the anti-war movement by making it hit home.
 
 
+6 # lorenbliss 2012-02-11 12:38
Though good fortune kept me from Vietnam – I did an extended tour in Korea c. 1961-62 – I was friendly with a number of 'Nam vets including two women who served there as nurses. Each of these people not only damned the war as immoral but said we fought on the wrong side.

Meanwhile historical revisionism obscures the era's bitter truths, including the fact veterans were generally despised by the larger Anti-Vietnam War Movement.

We knew the U.S. had already turned fascist. We knew the war ended not because of protest but because the Viet Cong and North Vietnam won. We knew the draft ended because -- as I said above – the Ruling Class concluded mandatory service was training the Revolution, exactly as the Tsarist Russian draft had done prior to 1917.

As for the AVWM, it was mostly a selfish protest by the college elite. Apart from tolerance of a few token vets, it was notably hateful to those who had actually served, whether in Vietnam or elsewhere on the imperial frontiers.

For example a 'Nam-vet friend and I were jeered as “baby killers” and – yes – spat upon during a 1971 anti-war meeting in Bellingham. We'd have been violently ousted but for forceful intervention by the lesbian activist Rebecca Valrejean, who asserted the rightfulness of veteran participation. But hers was clearly the minority position, and in most other such clashes the AVWM's defining malice prevailed.
 
 
+2 # Billy Bob 2012-02-11 19:17
Check out the movie when you get a chance and tell us what you think.
 
 
+5 # lorenbliss 2012-02-12 01:41
Space limits compelled me to omit the following:

(1)-A key function of the Vietnam War was to destroy the New Deal coalition that (until 22 November 1963 and despite setbacks like Taft-Hartley), was gently edging the U.S. toward democratic socialism.

(2)-After the Korean War, the Ruling Class reorganized Selective Service (the draft apparatus) to make the offspring of families wealthy enough to keep their kids in college a de facto aristocracy. All the rest of us were screwed. The new aristos instantly adopted the malicious snobbery characteristic of their caste and became openly contemptuous of anyone they deemed “draft bait.”

(3)-The resultant antagonism functioned exactly as the Ruling Class intended, driving a permanently hateful wedge between the coddled collegians and those of us condemned to be cannon fodder – a wedge manifest in the AVWM and apparent today in, for example, the anti-gun-owner fanaticism of the wealthier Democrats.

(4)-The false-flag nature of the AVWM – its use of Leftist rhetoric to hide its Ayn Rand selfishness – is revealed by three facts: how the AVWM ended the moment the draft was abolished; how U.S. feminism, which largely grew out of the AVWM, became the Ayn Rand/ consumeroid feminism unique to this nation; how eight years after the AVWM died, so many former members voted for Ronald Reagan.

I rest my case -- though I will try to see the film.
 
 
-3 # Billy Bob 2012-02-12 12:02
I didn't know we were arguing.
 
 
+1 # lorenbliss 2012-02-12 14:24
Not an argument as far as I am concerned...just a statement of historical fact, but with acute awareness these facts about the AVWM, in which I was an active participant, are extremely unpopular amongst the pseudo-progressives (i.e. Democrats, MoveOn.org types etc.), who unfortunately dominate what little remains of the Left here in Moron Nation.

Indeed telling the truth about the AVWM is so tabooed by these people, it got me permanently banished from Democratic Underground c. 2006. Hopefully the revitalized Left aborning via the Occupy Movement will soon recognize the pseudo-progressives as the class-traitors they are.

That said, here are two more additions to my post above:

Apropos the rejection of veterans – Vietnam and otherwise – by the coddled collegians of AVWM, this was often ideologically based. Those of us who had been radicalized by our service on the imperial frontiers understood we had served in capitalism's goon squad and accordingly began to recognize capitalism as evil. This was profoundly threatening to the coddled collegians who – as proven by their real-time Ayn Rand values (particularly their votes for Reagan) – were capitalists to the core.

Also, my (4) above should have specified “second-wave feminism,” not just U.S. feminism generally. This was not an accidental oversight; I was so close to the character limit I dared not include the compound adjective.
 
 
0 # dorianb@fuse.net 2012-02-12 17:49
Lorenbliss: You are a plethora of information, soul-mate. Would like to hear more about "second-wave feminism".
Not sure what you're talking about. Educate me, please.

Ayn Rand's philosophy of self-interest at any cost & the end justifying the means is antithetical to what I believe in & value. I understood her novels as Machaeivellian right away. Reflecting on your comment, I look back at feminism in the '60s & '70s & can perceive an element of Rand in feminist literature & rallies I was unaware of at the time.
 
 
+2 # lorenbliss 2012-02-13 05:18
Second-wave feminism was that which began in NYC c. 1967; first-wave feminism was the wellspring of the suffrage movement.

Also (another) clarification of over-generalization imposed by space limits: the initial hostility of the coddled collegians of the AVWM to vets was pure caste-malice: the same sneering contempt that later drove so many blue-collar workers out of the DemocRat Party and into the economic suicide of embracing the GOPorkers, But what really made the ever-capitalist collegians froth at the mouth is the huge number of anti-war vets who were socialists or at least socialist- leaning. The resultant class warfare -- and warfare it often was -- is why we vets eventually founded our own organizations, same reason vets are doing likewise today.

DemocRats and GOPorkers are equally bigoted; their bigotry merely has different hate-objects...yet another reason our only hope is an entirely new (eco-socialist) party, complete with an ideologically disciplined cadre. But first we have to evolve the ideology, presumably an eco-Marxism further modified to allow genuine participatory democracy -- which is where the Occupy Movement enters the picture (or so I dearly hope).
 
 
-2 # Billy Bob 2012-02-12 19:59
Don't you think that if the "baby killer" epithet was hurled at Vietnam vets it might have had something to do with a few facts like the My Lai massacre?

The My Lai massacre wasn't exactly an isolated incident either, was it?

It may be an unpopular fact to remember, but it happened nonetheless. Blaming the messenger won't change that either.
 
 
+2 # lorenbliss 2012-02-13 05:24
I wasn't in Vietnam, but I was nevertheless damned as a "baby-killer." And while atrocities in Vietnam were commonplace, their perpetrators were seldom the vets who were driven by conscience -- and "driven" is the correct verb -- to try to join the AVWM.

The massacre perpetrators were more likely to be the Lifers -- the same sort of people who worshipped the SS as heroes. Either that or the wannabe "warriors" who murdered Alison Krause and those other kids at Kent State...
 
 
-1 # Billy Bob 2012-02-13 08:53
There are a lot of emotions flying around in the air. Sometimes, elbows are flying too. Protestors were (and are) justifiably angry. Drafted soldiers to Vietnam were not at fault, but they felt some of that anger forced on them as well. It's what happens when our nation sponsors attrocities. People who should be alies turn against each other. It's important to know WHO you're blaming and blame them directly.
 
 
-5 # bugbuster 2012-02-10 13:15
I don't understand how that was about recruiting. It seems more to me like a way to do something nice for the Marines. At my wife's work they send care packages. Several of them have loved ones on deployment.
 
 
+22 # Glen 2012-02-10 14:42
Bugbuster, an elementary school is not the place to encourage a connection that students do not understand. Your wife and her fellow workers are adults.

Children should NEVER be exploited for ANY reason, and that's what this is.
 
 
+5 # Billy Bob 2012-02-10 16:38
That's exactly how I see it. What parent will speak up against it? I certainly won't. Would you?

This isn't about overt recruitment, it's about showing a very glorified version of what's going on without all those nasty details that we all know we can't tell our kids until they're old enough to understand them.

One thing I"ve told my daughter is that, in fighting and in war, there are no good guys, just bad guys and worse guys. I also told her that the reason for war is to steal things. She understands that, although I'm not sure many adults do.
 
 
+3 # Glen 2012-02-13 08:05
If I had kids in school now, I would definitely speak out. I did so when they were in high school and a recruiter came in, bringing suck up praise and misinformation to those students. Now days it does start earlier, creating awareness of the military at a very early age, and producing militaristic video games aimed at students, not just young adults or whoever.

Recruiters here give out ipods, have sleep overs (if you can believe it), and even the wives get in on the game by disparaging the friends of the kids who didn't participate telling participants to not hang out with those friends. And so forth.

You bet I would speak out, and know folks who have.
 
 
+6 # Capn Canard 2012-02-10 17:43
Glen, amen, if only...
 
 
+14 # Johnny 2012-02-10 13:04
Everybody hates what Rom says, because he is right. He scoffs at our most sacred, self-righteous, sanctimonious mythology. The crimes of the Nazis were horrible. But so were the crimes of the U.S. and England during WWII, and the crimes today of the Zionists and the U.S. murderers in the Middle East and South Asia. Those who make excuses for one Holocaust and condemn another are moral fools.
 
 
+20 # in deo veritas 2012-02-10 13:40
Right on! Dear old Uncle Adolf patterned his agenda for the conquered peoples especially in the east after our policy of genocide against the Native Americans (the American Holocaust) All he added to our policies was modern technology (Zyklon B, etc.) Same lies through Dr.Goebbels that our newspapers used to get public support for the "Indian Wars". Have we progressed morally at all over the past century or so?
 
 
+3 # dorianb@fuse.net 2012-02-10 16:34
How can anyone give a "Thumbs Up" to a Holocaust denier. There is no excuse for the historical "Holocaust". It was mass murder and torture of an ethnic group based on their religion. JOHNNY!!
 
 
+36 # Reductio Ad Absurdum 2012-02-10 13:11
I'm not sure which would be the greater tragedy here — if the Marines WERE aware of the symbol's origins, or if they WEREN"T aware of the symbol's origins.

Maybe the reason Americans never learn from history (example: the Bush Administration) is that they don't know their history.
 
 
+4 # Capn Canard 2012-02-10 17:52
Reductio Ad Absurdum, there are some seriously twisted dynamics at work here. First the distance of time. 65 years ago. Then the machismo of lightning bolt insignia. Then the aura, the mystic of invincible bad asses of the SS. All young in battle want that armor, even just the illusion of that armor. I don't blame these kids for this regrettable choice I blame their Lt or Capt. for not monitoring this closely enough. The Nazi emblem seems spot on given our nations' behavior toward Iraq and Afghanistan over the past 10 years. We are getting very close to that which we once had abhorred.
 
 
+24 # Jude 2012-02-10 13:12
Truly abhorrent, and sadly fitting for what the US has become in the world and even at home. And don’t kid yourselves that these intelligent young men didn’t know what the insignia meant.
 
 
+36 # lorenbliss 2012-02-10 13:14
The "ignorant cracker" excuse is nonsense. As I know from my own years in service -- Regular Army enlistment (active duty 1959-1962, reserves 1962-1965) -- military people of all branches read military history with the same zeal pubescent girls read fan magazines. And – yes – by the Vietnam era many U.S. military people already considered the Waffen SS a heroic organization.

Even were that not so, a choice of symbols (like any other form of art) invariably expresses truths beyond conscious purpose.

But here the intent is clearly obvious.

Combine that with the legions of Nazi war criminals the U.S. government absorbed after World War II, add the distinctly Germanic shape of the post-Vietnam U.S. military helmet and factor in present-day foreign and domestic policy – especially how the National Defense Authorization Act turns the military into a modern-day Gestapo – and what you've got is the Fourth Reich, with the One Percent as the ubermenchen and all the rest of us as their untermenschen slaves.

Ayn Rand or Adolf Hitler, it's capitalism in action, and the end result is identical.
 
 
0 # dorianb@fuse.net 2012-02-12 12:12
Lorebliss: You are one smart and well educated woman. I admire you, soul-mate!

"The "ignorant cracker" excuse is
nonsense."

You have much to say, to teach, to share with the misinformed & more well informed
 
 
+18 # cordleycoit 2012-02-10 13:16
The ss were the bad guys who policed the camps were shock troops as well as camp guards. The Corps appears to have been caught creating the same sort of soldiers as the Nazi armies.Some say they are young and attempt to desert these young men after they have been exposed to the brutalization that the SS represents. I would say no they ought to work with the collateral damage of dead and wounded civilians for a couple of years. Since we are killing civilians every day we ought to be able to provide assistance to the traumatized and disabled civilians who walk in front of American guns around the world. We must not forget fascism is a contagion and spreads untreated.
 
 
+4 # BEN S. 2012-02-10 13:26
First off, I do think, or hope, that these kids really just didn't have a good grasp on what it meant, and/or they may have had a vague idea and didn't think it was really that big of a deal. Granted I know that the military can be a breeding ground for white supremacists, but I wouldn't think they would be able to infiltrate a full platoon...

Furthermore, I know that sometimes things can get misconstrued or blown out of proportion. While I was in the Army, and living in Germany, me and a friend were arrested for a Subhumans bumper sticker because the S at the beginning and end were like lightning bolts. In reality, they were messing with us cause we were Americans, because if you knew the views of the Subhumans or ourselves for that matter, on Nazi's, there would be know way that we would be arrested...
Anyways, the point of the story is, things can be misunderstood unless you know the whole story. I think that there should be an investigation, but I won't jump to conclusions until something more concrete comes to light...
Lastly, after reading some of the comments that seem to exude a vast amount of American exceptionalism... I think we need to recognize that the US isn't much better. Especially considering the long term, continuing, genocide of Native Americans here in the US... Also if we look at WWII, the amount of racial violence here in the US, frankly made us hypocrites, at least during that era... I'll stop ranting and raving now...
 
 
+12 # DLT888 2012-02-10 13:30
That's what we are now -- Nazis. They just had the audacity to show it.
 
 
-3 # Todd Williams 2012-02-10 14:24
So we are Nazis. Boy, I'm glad that's cleared up. Well, since Americans are Nazis, can we do whatever we want to anybody? I'm going to learn German and break out my Nazi flag and portraits of Hitler. Some of you on this forum have obviusly lost yor minds. I know America has done some bad things over our historyand I'm not propud of that fact. However, I hardly think the country has stooped as low as Nazism. I'm totally disgusted.
 
 
+25 # fredboy 2012-02-10 13:31
My late uncle was an Army ranger who fought the SS in WWII. I do not think this action honors his memory, or the memory of all who suffered and died at the hands of the Nazi SS.
 
 
+30 # in deo veritas 2012-02-10 13:33
If indeed these Marines were not aware of the significance of the SS and its crimes, then that is proof of the failure of our educational system. Those who supposedly taught them history did a lousy job. I can damn well assure you that no one left my history classes without a clear understanding of the evil perpetrated by the Nazis, especially by the einsatzgruppen exterminators. Anyone emulating them is not fit to live in a civilized society. If we tolerate them then we are willing accomplices and should be judged accordingly.
 
 
+9 # dorianb@fuse.net 2012-02-10 16:52
in deo veritas: This is a an empathetic, intelligent and moral response.
 
 
+6 # Billy Bob 2012-02-10 17:36
Thank you for being someone who taught the truth. I took a college class in the Psychology of the Holocaust during the time of the Oklahoma City bombing. It was clear that the U.S. was beginning to resemble 1928 Germany. Of course, since 9-11 it's gotten even worse.

This is probably one of the 5 most important history lessons kids can learn.
 
 
+19 # DLT888 2012-02-10 13:34
A lot of people don't like this but our boy scouts and girl scouts are a way of militarizing our youth. My mother wanted me to be in Girl Scouts because she wasn't when she was a girl so I went but LOATHED the green uniform and the sash and the badges and the beret and the saluting. HATED IT! And, as an adult, I know why. As a child, I intuitively knew it was militarizing me and I hated it.
 
 
-12 # minkdumink 2012-02-10 13:45
Responding to criticism that the Scout Sniper units of the Corps looks similar to the nazi SS symbol the marines have announced that they are changing the symbol to a fat slob sitting in front of play station, stuffing himself with fried chicken. And its ok to flount the stars and bars right? They are not teaching other peoples history at Parris Island,Pendleto n,and Quantico.They are teaching how to end it.
 
 
+15 # Glen 2012-02-10 16:11
"Fat slob sitting in front of a play station stuffing himself with fried chicken"? You mean like the people controlling drones from a far distant galaxy? The drones killing people with indifference?

The stars and bars is not the issue. It is the SS flag. I take it you are saying there is no history taught in military schools and stations - they are taught to end the history of those peoples?
 
 
-6 # minkdumink 2012-02-13 08:10
exactly, and what would you want them to learn? there is a reason that they are feared and have 136 years with no defeats. rome fell because they compromised the legions.
 
 
+2 # Glen 2012-02-13 15:42
So, you are in agreement with killing and dominion and immoral acts? What exactly do you mean 136 years with no defeats? guess you don't remember Vietnam and other exercises that ended in failure. Of course, the U.S. covers up the failures and the millions of deaths.
 
 
+20 # walt 2012-02-10 14:01
No surprise at this at all. The general public has remained silent for over ten years and allowed our troops to occupy other countries. It's all been OK as we watch our volunteer troops die and we spend $2 billion/week in Afghanistan.

We have no draft, so who gives a damn?

This is very sad and will only worsen until Americans literally take to the streets and demand an end to the killing.
 
 
+8 # qpressng 2012-02-10 14:17
This should not just attributed to the fact that the corp members don't know the history behind the symbol, did any of them invented the symbol? I think the action was delibrate and they should be severely dealth with for their oversight.
 
 
+3 # Legion 2012-02-10 14:22
I favor unusually harsh punishment for irresponsible youths who use the SS logo. The Marine Hymn (a little-known fact) was composed by a German Jew (in fact, it comes from an ensemble number in a comic opera and the original words---in French---would translate something like, "we're the gendarmes, and we can lick anybody!"). The image of the Marines as the ultimate professional military unit who have the most rigorous basic training in the world has been sullied by these very stupid boys. Educate them and then punish them by assigning them menial jobs for a few weeks!
 
 
+10 # ozken 2012-02-10 14:53
Symbolism is an insidious thing but of course those Marines understood the significance of the SS just as members of Bike Gangs throughout the world wear swastikas. The mindset is that of little boys wanting to be badasses – as any woman is quick to tell you – many men have a case of arrested development. Do you want to be a man – a tough guy – or a wimp too much in touch with your feminine side? We don’t have a feminine side baby we are quick to shout! It’s not funny but frankly men are walking around in 21st century clothing with iPad, iPhone, iPod or any other i blasting our eyes and ears but mentally and physically we are no different to a hunting band or war party of 50,000 years ago. When we are in our youth anyway – we crave excitement and boredom is anathema. Look at the millions of young men who joyously rushed to join up in the First World War for example. You often hear guys recalling their army days as the best years of their lives. Unfortunately as a man it’s all about testosterone. Witness Obama’s recent ‘state of the nation ‘speech. See – I may be a Democrat but I’m just as tough as you. It’s sad but true – men shouldn’t be trusted with decisions on going to war – testosterone clouds the brain. We’ve just gotta be cocks of the walk.
 
 
+4 # Andrew Hansen 2012-02-10 14:53
These boys know not what they do. Our societhy is a machine that generates violence. Worse, it heightens the status of those who excel at it. That is until they personally come crashing down under th e pressure.

It is simply a sad state of affairs that will not be undone until there is either a sea change in our entire population or the Us overextends and fails of its own.
 
 
+9 # ozken 2012-02-10 14:54
CONTINUED: Like one commentator I too noticed that U.S. army helmets look very German and just assumed that the design was worked out to cover more of the head from enemy fire – now I wonder – is it just that it looks cool and ‘badass’? Lucas understood all this with his uniforms of the good and bad guys in his Star Wars franchise. The trouble is I think that like me when the world looks at the United States today we see a nation more like the Galactic Empire than the Galactic Republic. It makes me sad that a culture I admired in the 1950’s is now working for the Dark Side.
273,000,000 firearms in the United States owned by its citizens. Feeling any safer yet?
 
 
-5 # John Gill 2012-02-11 14:49
You bring up an interesting point. Historically, (at least in modern times,and probably forever,) the military forces of different nations have modeled their uniforms after ones worn by those perceived as the "toughest" and most skilled militarily. In fact, in the late 19th, early 20th century, The US Marine Corps sported helmets with a spike on top, after the fashion of german helmets in that period. 'Round and 'round she goes....and where she stops....
 
 
0 # uglysexy 2012-02-10 14:56
Israel is not mirroring anything of the Nazis. There is no final solution type thinking suggested by the Israelis. Yet it is commonly expressed by those that surround them and outnumber them. You Anti Israeli 'Progressives', who conflate the self defensive Posture of Israel with the 3rd Reich, are a disgrace.
I'm progressive politically and support Israel and know there is no dissonance in doing/being both.
The United States has killed far more Muslims, without an Existential threat like the one Israel faces, Than Israel has...by a huge Factor ....and now You see how our Military Behaves with SS Logos? Wake up. It can happen again. You have Right Wing Crazies like Palin putting rifle sights on Centrists like Giffords, Right Wing Crazies like Gingrich calling for the Arrest of Dodd and Frank, Right Wing Crazies like Santorum suggesting a Religious Right Wing Nut Case Guillotine may be down the road a bit....and You attack Israel for being intent on it's self defense to prevent another Holocaust Against half the World's Jews. You are Nuts
 
 
+6 # lcarrier 2012-02-10 15:46
The simple truth is that Israel is not facing an "existential threat." We should defend Israel's right to exist without taking arms against Iran. The best means for Israel to defend itself is to attempt by diplomacy to make peace with its neighbors. The U.S. is poised to help, but saber-rattling is not going to make Palestinians and Arabs knuckle under to what they feel is an unfair occupation and enlargement of the Israeli state.
 
 
+6 # Glen 2012-02-10 16:24
You might want to do some research concerning the rearrangement of the "middle east" and the establishment of Israel. The history is rather nasty, and the folks in that territory did not request those changes.

You are also right that Israel is not participating in a final solution type thinking. They have their own style and method of genocide that has been condemned by international courts that the U.S. refuses to recognize. Of course, the U.S. has been condemned also.

The brutal and exclusive establishment of that "country" was excuse enough for their neighbors to rebel. Had Israel desired peace, they would have fought for peace rather than dominance.
 
 
-3 # dorianb@fuse.net 2012-02-10 17:03
Uglysexy: YOU ARE BRILLIANT! I quote you:

"You Anti-Israeli 'Progressives'", who conflate the self defensive Posture of Israel with the 3rd Reich are a disgrace"
 
 
+3 # John Gill 2012-02-11 15:08
Absolutely you can be politically progressive, and supportive of Israel's rights as a nation. Why not? On the other hand, why would you find fault with fellow progressives who point with disapproval at Israel's totalitarian policies? There are plenty of Jews with relatives in Israel who voice similar outrage. In fact, there is a huge, growing movement within the state of Israel that loudly opposes the inhumane totalitarian, (yes. sadly Nazi-like,) treatment of the Palestinian people. They are Israeli Jews that make up this movement, some of the ones ACTUALLY facing this existential threat, but decent human beings also; ("menchen," is the Yiddish term,)I agree that Israel faces an existential threat. But the fact that the US is responsible for more deaths in the middle east is not an excuse for their horrible policies and I don't believe there is any dissonance in a political progressive taking that position either.
 
 
+20 # RMDC 2012-02-10 14:57
In spite of what the article says, it has been quite common for marines, rangers, and other elite forces in the US military to identify with the SS. Don't forget that Reagan made a trip to Bitburg, Germany, to lay a wreath on the graves of SS soldiers and make a speech praising them. They have always been the idols of the far right. The guys in the photos might well be American neo-nazis or white supremacists -- of which there are plenty.

There is nothing new here. These are professional and trained killers and they kill people with darker skins -- business as usual.
 
 
-13 # JohnnyK 2012-02-10 15:04
The kids in the photos are probably too young to know anything about the German SS. They just probably thought that the lightning bolts looked cool.
 
 
+7 # Billy Bob 2012-02-10 16:40
You might be right, but someone is responsible.
 
 
+14 # dorianb@fuse.net 2012-02-10 17:08
The" kids in the photos" are not kids. They are Marines and being investigated because what they did is not a school boy prank.
 
 
+11 # Billy Bob 2012-02-11 11:14
You're right. If they're just a bunch of kids who aren't responsible for their actions, then maybe they're too young to be handling guns.
 
 
+5 # lcarrier 2012-02-10 15:41
These young marines just don't get it. I blame their superior for not shutting this down.
 
 
+4 # dorianb@fuse.net 2012-02-12 12:32
Icarrier: When psychotic young students
shoot classmates, you can blame their superiors for not supervisng them more closely, but not for their psychosis.
 
 
+8 # danstigator 2012-02-10 15:55
Check out the end of Oliver Stone's "Platoon". Right after Charlie Sheen's character shoots Sgt. Barnes, an American armored vehicle arrives with what? You guessed it! Waffen SS flag.
 
 
-1 # dorianb@fuse.net 2012-02-12 12:38
It is not unusual to use a metaphor ironically in film and theatre.
 
 
-4 # ozken 2012-02-10 16:16
"Israel is not mirroring anything of the Nazis. There is no final solution type thinking suggested by the Israelis." If that is true Uglysexy then how true is this report from the London Times in 1998.

Israel is working on an "ethnically targeted" biological weapon that would kill or harm Arabs but not Jews, according to Israeli military and western intelligence sources cited in a front-page report in the London Sunday Times, November 15, 1998 ("Israel Planning 'Ethnic' Bomb as Saddam Caves In," by Uzi Mahnaimi and Marie Colvin).

Apparently it didn't go ahead only because Arab genes are very close to Jewish genes and they couldn't target just the Arabs.

Hey - this could be an urban myth but the Times is a reasonably well respected rag.
 
 
-2 # dorianb@fuse.net 2012-02-12 17:16
Ozken: This is an urban myth literally, historically, ethnicity-wise and in the practice of their religions. Arab genes are no closer to Jewish genes than they are to English or Swedish genes. A Poster stated on another Post that the Jews in Israel have been known to circumcise female offspring. This has never been done in the Jewish religion, but it is performed in Arab countries.
I abhor the plethora of misinformation underlying & promoting anti-semitism or hatred of Jewish people. "Myths" about the Jews were prevlant during the NAZI Regime and taught to German children in school.
This propaganda was used to justify Hitler's plan to exterminate the Jewish people and the NAZIS hatred of Jews. If you are wondering if I am a practicing member of Judaism, I am not but I have studied and taught the major religions, & abhor bigotry & prejudice of any kind. I, also have great respect for Jewish people for the contributions they've given to the world in the fields of science, medicine, literature, law and the Arts.
 
 
-3 # Billy Bob 2012-02-12 20:27
You're right. Modern day Jews are only half Semitic. They're also half European.

When they displaced the native population of Palestine in 1947, it was a European invasion, and the way the Palestinians were just brushed aside was anti-semitic. Even though, the idea to commit this act wasn't generated by nazis.
 
 
+8 # seeuingoa 2012-02-10 17:18
What sad photos.
 
 
+2 # dorianb@fuse.net 2012-02-11 18:16
You're my MAN, Seeingoa!
 
 
+14 # badbenski 2012-02-10 17:27
The Schutzstaffel (SS) were led by officers who were, for the most part, selected for their fanatic loyalty to Nazi beliefs and practices. Similarly the foot soldiers in SS military units were selected for their aryan appearnce and willingness to follow the orders of the afore-mentioned fanatical officers. They were true believers, which makes for tremedous unit cohesion which in turn makes for an effective fighting force. Consequently, Waffen SS units became known as, to use baseball jargon, "a tough out." We find them in Eastern Europe decimating villages of innocent civilians in retaliation for the deeds of local insurgents/freedom fighters. To wear the deaths head symbol was no small matter, engaged in by reluctant foot soldiers forced to toe the party line. No, the Waffen SS gloried in their brutal reputation and did all that they could to maintain it.

Having said all that, we know that our military has been a favorite refuge for young white supremicists and neo nazis who know full well the meaning, heritage and tradtions embodied in nazi symbols. They know the Waffen SS were among WW II's true badasses and they love it. That's consistent with the military mentality of some of our soldiers, especially those in elite units. I'm sure that most Vets out there know what I mean.

Former CCT/USAF
 
 
+10 # Billy Bob 2012-02-11 17:47
The few times my Dad talked about WWII he would occassionally chime in about how, "yeah, we had a few guys like that when I was in the Army".

They had the draft. The few guys like that were the ones who had these kinds of attitudes and they were outnumbered because the draft didn't only glorify them. They were the crazy ones and it was clear that they WERE NOT better soldiers. But, they WERE the guys everyone else hated.

My Dad never had much tolerance for gung-ho bullshit. Maybe that was because he saw how bad it could be. We haven't fought too many fights since WWII where our enemy was as capable of doling out just as much punishment. Maybe fighting in a seriously horrible bloodbath where the outcome was anything but guaranteed, kept many of my Dad's generation firmly grounded in reality.

I DEARLY miss him and I DEARLY miss everything he stood for.

As for the rest of us, still living souls, I don't know how many of you have the same experience I had of being around a man of true honor, and integrity, but our generation has its work cut of for it if it ever wants to live up to that. If my Dad was a young man right now, I guarantee he wouldn't be proudly enlisting to the aid of the oil cartels.

War is the worst thing this world has to offer and it's best left to adults who only take part in it when all other options are exhausted. That has NOT happened with our country since WWII.
 
 
+12 # Majikman 2012-02-10 18:50
If your job is to kill, I would assume that you'd want as your symbol the one with the most ruthless, efficient record of kills and that would strike the most fear in the target. Lots of choices: it could be the skull & crossbones, radiation hazard, snarling predatory animals, Nazi SS and others.
Those marines knew exactly what they did as well as their commanders by choosing the SS.
Here's the thing: when police and military join to quash peaceful demonstrations in this country and those forces are not even from the local communities where they might know a few of the protesters, how restrained will those SS identifying marines be? We've already seen the brutality of the mere police. As another poster said...what midwest skin head wouldn't love a shot at a San Francisco hippie.
Attack dogs do not make good pets.
 
 
-8 # sid 2012-02-11 14:53
white folks are white because they believe in this supremacy stuff
 
 
+3 # dorianb@fuse.net 2012-02-11 20:50
Sid: I am a "white" person and I despise white "supremacy stuff",which is why I researched Ron Paul and his WS-KKK associates & sent literature to anyone I know who was unaware of this but taken in by his anti-war talk! Now, they want nothing to do with him. Please do not
assume all "white folks are white because they believe in this supremacy stuff".

I despise racial bigotry & prejudice of any kind which includes anti-semitism & have fought against it my entire life & will continue to do so.
 
 
-1 # futhark 2012-02-12 12:41
Well, that's what is implied in the Book of Mormon. According to its account, the lost tribes of Israel that ended up in North America became darker in complexion as they departed further and further from righteousness and from following God's commandments. Their descendents became the Native Americans, darker in complexion than the Europeans because they had fallen away from the true faith and adherence to the high standards of worshiping Yahweh, Jehovah, God, etc. I think we can assume that Willard "Mitt" Romney, as a believing Latter Day Saint, accepts this explanation for differing melanin concentrations in human skin. I hope someone has the nerve to ask him about this someday.
 
 
0 # dorianb@fuse.net 2012-02-12 17:19
This is malarky!
 
 
0 # disgusted American 2012-02-11 16:29
The MRFF said Thursday in a letter: "If the use of the Nazi insignia has been, in any way, condoned or tolerated by the Marine Corp.[sic], the implications are abhorrent to everything for which our country is fighting and the constitutional principles for which it stands."

What constitutional principles would those be? The ones that allow the U.S. to bomb the hell out of every country on the planet in order to take control of oil and build empire which is really the only reason America is fighting the endless fake war on terror?

You must be referring to a constitution that we don't know about, or, maybe, you can't read.
 
 
-5 # sid 2012-02-11 19:11
the nazis had a constitution is emergency power and war ... that's what 's been going on for 1/2 of the time after the brits left and that's the case now. violence against people of color is the law, the new jim crow law we live under.
 
 
+5 # futhark 2012-02-11 22:24
The twin lightning bolts of the "Seig Seig" runes for the SS are second only to the swastika as being recognizable symbols of the Nazis. I find it inconceivable that American Marines would be unfamiliar with these symbols and the atrocities committed by those who displayed them.

What about the massacre of American POWs by German SS troops at Malmedy, Belgium, during World War II on December 17, 1944? Don't American troops get at least a little history worked into their basic training? I think former SS members are forever banned from emigrating to the United States on the basis of having belonged to a recognized criminal organization. Why would the U. S. Marine Corps not act forcefully to distance itself from any association with the SS or Nazism?
 
 
+1 # dorianb@fuse.net 2012-02-12 12:51
Futhark: What you say is important.."The U.S. Marine Corps is acting forcefully to distance itself from any association with the SS or Nazism". This is why the SS Marines are under investigation by the U.S. Marine Corps and why Pro-NAZI comments are inappropriate.
 
 
-6 # minkdumink 2012-02-13 08:41
my son was a scout sniper,he did 2 tours in Iraq and 2 in afghanistan.during this time he,and we realized it was all a bunch of BS.Do you have any idea of the fear that we endured knowing he might die,and for a pack of lies? You think any of us cared that they had a symbol that might look like something other than it was? The nit picking that goes on in this country is unreal when you put it up against the reality of life and death.And please dont respond thanking him for his service,bring the rest of them home before more die for nothing.
 
 
-1 # Billy Bob 2012-02-13 16:49
Thank you for admitting that it's a bunch of b.s. even though your son had to endure it.
 
 
-5 # lexx 2012-02-13 09:03
minkdumink, your post is the most resonant one here. You are so right...bring them all home NOW.
 
 
+3 # Windy126 2012-02-14 14:00
I an convinced that we are dumbing down our kids when it comes to history. How else can they convince them that violence is good. They need cannon fodder for all of our future wars. So stop birth control,
just encourage them to keep popping out kids. Glorifying people who have one kid after another. Doesn't give me much hope for this country. We are one sick nation!
 
 
+3 # dusty 2012-02-14 16:22
Family members served in Europe in WW2 (not me I was born in '40 but I would have fought the NAZIS then and still would now.) and I find this action by these Marines to be equivalent to treason to the nation. They should be the subject of court martial and imprisoned and when released dishonorably discharged.
 
 
+2 # dusty 2012-02-14 16:26
If these Marines are so illiterate or of such low IQ that they don't know the symbol of the SS then what are they doing in our military? Are there no low IQ or education standards? Perhaps this picture explains more than it tells directly: the atrocities that we hear of from time to time that are usually dismissed as battle field fog or rage.
 
 
0 # noitall 2012-02-17 13:57
These guys went through Basic training. They know more about what they "mean" than we can surmise. They avidly fight against many things that their grandfathers fought to preserve. 'Ignorance' is the only word we can use on their behalf. In this case, it is a hopeful word. We will soon see how they behave on the streets of America. They went through Basic Training!
 

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