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The Palin Principle: Bible Trumps Constitution

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Tuesday, 11 May 2010 16:20
Sarah Palin speaking in Toledo, Ohio, 10/29/08. (photo: McCain-Palin 2008)

Sarah Palin speaking in Toledo, Ohio, 10/29/08. (photo: McCain-Palin 2008)


arah Palin can't seem to distinguish between the Bible and the American Constitution.

Appearing recently on Bill O'Reilly's TV show, Palin advised that what we need to do in this country is -


"Go back to what our founders and our founding documents meant - they're quite clear - that we would create law based on the God of the bible and the ten commandments."

Huffington Post


That's quite a statement - but nothing new to those who would re-imagine this country as one based on religion. Indeed, the religious right has long sought to make the case that the United States was founded on Judeo-Christian beliefs despite the fact that the evidence clearly points to a very different intent.

While purveyors of this notion have come up with any number of reasons to support their claim, the most often cited 'proof' is the fact that the Declaration of Independence puts God front and center. The thing is, there was no American nation when we proclaimed our independence from Great Britain. And while the Declaration of Independence is certainly one of the most important political documents in our history, it simply has no legal effect on the laws of this nation. That distinction belongs to the Constitution; our first, and most enduring, statement of the concepts which form the basis of law in the United States.

Another explanation frequently offered up in support of the notion that the founders had God on their minds is the advent of the phrase "In God We Trust" as the nation's motto. What the religion peddlers don't appreciate is that the phrase was first used in 1864 - almost 100 years after the founding of the nation - when embossed on the two-cent coin in response to the rising religious fervor in the country as a result of the Civil War. Indeed, the phrase did not officially become our national motto until 1956.

While God played a part in the personal lives of many of our founders (though not all), the truth is that nowhere in the United States Constitution can you find the word "God" - not even once.

An oversight? Unlikely.

In Thomas Jefferson's autobiography, he comments on the language he used to restate the importance of religious freedom in the document that is his second most famous writing (and the one historians suggest was the creation he was most proud of ), the Revised Code of the State of Virginia.


"Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting "Jesus Christ," so that it would read "A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion was rejected by the great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination."

Thomas Jefferson, Autobiography, in reference to the Virginia Act for Religious Freedom


Does this sound like someone who sought to weave Judeo-Christian theory and belief into the creation of the Constitution?

Indeed, no less a religious source than Beliefnet.com acknowledges that Jefferson was a heretic in his time - deeply angered by what he viewed as a total perversion of Christianity after the time of Christ's death. Given his feelings, it seems highly unlikely that he sought to include the principles of Christian religion into the founding of the nation.

Another key author of the Constitution, Thomas Paine, had this to say in Chapter 1 of his famous pamphlet, The Age of Reason -


"I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish Church, by the Roman Church, by the Greek Church, by the Turkish Church, by the Protestant Church, nor by any Church that I know of. My own mind is my own Church."


Does anyone believe that Thomas Paine sought to include Judeo-Christian beliefs in his drafting of the U.S. Constitution?

As for author John Adams - a man with strong religious beliefs who allowed religion to play a part in his personal life but carefully avoided it in public matters - nowhere is there clearer proof of the man's approach to this subject than in the little known "Treaty of Tripoli", signed by President John Adams and confirmed by the U.S. Senate in 1796, less than 10 years after the Constitution's adoption.

Chapter 11 of the treaty reads:


"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; (emphasis added) as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."

Treaty of Tripoli


Could it possibly be any clearer?

If people like Sarah Palin wish to argue that the nation ought to follow a course that places religion squarely into the law making process, I suppose that is their right.

However, the continuous effort by Palin and friends to pervert the true history of the nation and the intentions of the founders is nothing short of subversive and clearly dangerous.

At best, the suggestion that religion rests at the foundation of our legal system is one based on ignorance of the principles that are the heart of this country. At its worse, the effort is little more than an attempt to pervert the philosophy of the nation's founders in order to re-invent America to meet the religious right's own objectives and to re-make the nation into something quite different than what it was intended to be.

I respect and appreciate the value of religion in many people's lives. But if Sarah Palin wants to rule a nation based on God, she really should look elsewhere. There are many countries in the world that would meet her requirements - although she will find that most of them worship the God of Islam. Palin might ask the women in so many of these theocracies how government and law based on religion has worked out for them.

Or Palin and friends might simply look up the word "Pilgrim" in the dictionary and learn about how our own original settlers were fleeing religious persecution at the hands of a Monarch who was also the leader of the Christian church in the land of their birth.

Our founders knew exactly what they were - and were not - doing when determining the nature of law in this country and the importance of a secular government.

While the religious right are free to vote for candidates who share their reliance on religious belief, they are not free to re-imagine the fundamentals of this country - at least not without putting their reinvention through the rigorous process of amending, or re-writing, our Constitution.

That's the way it was intended to be done and even Sarah Palin doesn't get to make it otherwise.


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Comments  

 
+44 # Guest 2010-05-11 20:44
When Christians demand that organized prayer be returned to public schools I pose the following hypothetical situation to them:

"What if Muslims became the dominant religious group in the U.S.. Would you favor organized Islamic prayers be performed in our public schools?"

So many of them are perplexed as if they've never even contemplated that anything other than their own Christian religion could or should be imposed on innocent children.
 
 
+17 # Ninure 2010-05-12 05:41
Never mind them objecting to Muslim prayers.

Just imagine how the Protestant Religious Right would react if their child were required to say the Rosar, or if the Bible to be studied was that "liberal" New International Version!!

Glen Beck has said that any Christians who believe in "social justice" are Nazis, so millions of American Christians would find them selves shut out to...
 
 
+7 # Guest 2010-05-12 09:52
Many people have difficulty seeing outside their own 'box of reality', or comfort zone. For instance, ask people to name America's favorite spectator sport, and the majority of answers will be baseball, when in fact N.A.S.C.A.R. stock car racing far outpaces baseball as America's favorite spectator sport. Years of propaganda and media hype presenting baseball as "America's Game" because it was invented here, and for some time was the game-of-choice for most Americans, has created a 'comfort zone' for baseball that no longer exists. Yet because they have trouble accepting change from the status quo, these people refuse to see the forest for the trees. Much like these Americans who believe that baseball still reigns supreme as 'America's Favorite Game', these guys think 'Christianity' is the 'default' religion for the U.S.A. when that simply is not true.
 
 
+2 # Guest 2010-05-12 12:07
Speaking of seeing outside of a box of reality, the NFL is America's favorite spectator sport. Look it up.
 
 
+50 # Bob-Investigates 2010-05-11 21:10
I would change the title to THE PALIN PRINCIPLE: BIBLE THUMPS CONSTITUTION.

Let's cut to the chase---Palin is simply pandering to the Republican "base", namely, the Bible-thumper-bangers. If they get their way, there won't be any religious freedom in our country. They would put the ten commandments in every public building and have students in public schools reading from the Bible every day. They won't be satisfied until they shove their religious views and religious symbols in everyone's face and down everyone's throat. As for Pathetic Palin, she's the perfect example of what is wrong with politicians in our country. She's a giant phony (think Trooper-gate) and she only had her checkbook in mind when she quit as Gov with 2 years to go. Thomas Jefferson called Christianity "an abomination." Bet you won't hear Palin quoting that! Bottom line: she's a joke, but a very dangerous, bad joke.
 
 
+23 # Guest 2010-05-12 07:35
The Texas school board is already on record with their revised curriculum in American history, with its claim of a Christian purpose in our founding. Thomas Jefferson is omitted from their syllabus because of his position on freedom of, and from, religion. The pressure of a large state on textbook publishers endangers all states' education. As for displaying the Ten Commandments, which version would Texas use --although they originate from one appearance in the Hebrew Scriptures, there are three different translations, Jewish, Catholic, and Protestant in that historical order. Yes, the devil is in the details.
 
 
+4 # Guest 2010-05-12 13:02
And don't forget Mel Brooks version of "The History of the World, Part I" and Moses' third tablet of commandments. No one will ever know what 11 through 15 are! But if you ask Palin, I am sure she has five more she could add "in a jiffy."
 
 
0 # Guest 2010-05-22 18:03
Actually, there are many more than 10 commandments. I think the total number is over 100 -- this is in the same book of the bible that Mose's story is in. The ones about rape and incest never made it to the "front page", although they are there. I believe this can be verified although I am far from an expert.
 
 
+1 # Guest 2010-05-22 18:00
As a Texan, I am deeply ashamed by the short-sightedness of our Tx St Board of Ed. This whole situation boggles my mind.

"They" claim they are trying to "right" the concepts that were left out by the liberals. Can't we just tell the truth? If "something" was left out, put it in, don't take out Thomas Jefferson.

Luckily, the Texas School Board elections are coming up soon. Potential candidates are already vowing to overturn the board's decision. Get out and vote for a new board, people!

ME
 
 
+21 # David of Hawaii 2010-05-11 22:10
There are many Gods lumped under the term God in the Bible These gods can be identified by their actions or the actions of their followers. Jesus said: "Ye shall know them by their fruits" Matt 7:16

The Gods of Money, Greed and Lust beckons and chooses all who will listen.

The Gods of Anger and Hatred have a strident voice and seem to get the biggest selection of people followed closely by the:

The God of War chooses many people and nations to do its bidding often creating even more supplicants for the Gods of Anger and Hatred.

The God of Peace has a small voice and is often drowned out by the din raised by the followers of the Gods of War, Anger and Hatred. Few there are who really seek this God.

If you read history including the Bible and other religious books, you will have noted nations and individuals who have chosen or been chosen by certain of these Gods.
 
 
+11 # Guest 2010-05-12 05:20
Within the power structure of the USA the only god of consequence is Mammon. None other need apply for the position of god above all gods. It takes money to get elected and to retain office so money is the over-riding force behind America's power structure and will remain so as long as we acquiesce to having legislation bought and sold in the halls of congress and state legislatures in this nation.
 
 
+18 # Guest 2010-05-11 22:55
So many fine examples and proof that this nation was not founded on Judeo-Christian principles. Someone should start a petition or a write-a-thon and flood Palin's mailbox as well as Bill O'Reilly and Fox with these references. She certainly will never debate one on one with anyone so that she can be made a fool of.
 
 
+18 # Guest 2010-05-11 23:03
As a U.S. History teacher, I'm inclined to agree with you. The framers had good reasons for keeping church and state separate.

Although, your argument is good and Sarah Palin's grasp of history scares me, you too have some historical errors. The three most notable persons whose work influenced the Constitution but who were not involved in its writing are Thomas Jefferson, John Adams and Thomas Paine. All three were out of the country when the framers were in Philadelphia drafting the Constitution.
 
 
+16 # Guest 2010-05-12 06:43
Yes, but it is my understanding that Jefferson returned late in the process, and was quite dismayed at what he saw. In response he authored the first ten amendments, commonly called the Bill of Rights.
 
 
+9 # Guest 2010-05-12 07:04
Actually, you are correct that Thomas Jefferson and John Adams were both out of the country and did not attend the Constitutional Convention. However, most historians believe that the two of them - along with James Madison - held the largest sway over the document. Much of Jefferson's thought was expressed through his protege, James Madison. Adams kept his hand in the game through any number of people involved. As for Paine, I believe he was there. But,even he were not present at the Convention, to suggest that his impact was not felt would be seriously incorrect.
 
 
+5 # Guest 2010-05-12 16:54
John Adams had previously written a new constitution for Massachusetts, and that constitution was one source consulted for the U.S. Constitution. BTW, our FIRST governing document was the Articles of Confederation; that plan didn't work as well as people wanted so Madison et al. met to revise the Articles and ended up creating the Constitution. That said, we operated for about 10 years under the Articles, which is no small feat. Preceding those were, of course, the Continental Congresses under which we managed to declare independence and begin the war that got us that status. Not a bad record -- and no religion specified in any of those documents.
 
 
0 # Guest 2010-05-21 17:27
@Pam Mauro One can, of course, point to the model Paine proposed for a US Constitution in "Common Sense", but neither he, Madison or Jefferson were present, or authors. Thanks for making this oft misunderstood point.

We cannot complain of Ms. Palin's lack of a grasp of US history if we display similar ignorance, hmmm?
 
 
+16 # Guest 2010-05-11 23:08
Sounds like she's trying to out crazy Bachman.
 
 
+19 # Guest 2010-05-11 23:20
It is unbelievable, at least on the surface of things, to imagine that a demagog from the extreme right political and religious fringe could grow in status as Sarah Palin has done in recent years. But as Rick Unger has so eloquently pointed out - the "religion peddlers" within this nation have been pushing their religious notions, gathering fanatical support and (otherwise)seek ing to re-write history (as well as our constitution) for quite some time now.

If Obama and the Democrats fail to hold power then Sarah Palin and people much like her may very soon restrict our religious freedom in a way only a true (and perhaps quite psychotic) religious zealot could enjoy.

If you are interested in this topic (b-t-w) - there is a new video out that you are sure to find as informative as it is entertaining - regarding this very topic.

It is called - "A Christian Nation?" and here is the Link:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6eQazNUNO2w
 
 
+32 # Guest 2010-05-12 00:07
The less knowledge people have, the more they "believe" !
 
 
-75 # paperpushermj 2010-05-12 00:09
Spin it as you like, take what she says out of content,create when it suits your view,mock her, let your hubris run amok. The people in fly over country know her. She is them and they are her. Let your hubris consume you, we will prevail. Arrogance is your downfall.
 
 
+15 # Guest 2010-05-12 07:16
Quoting
Spin it as you like, take what she says out of content,create when it suits your view,mock her, let your hubris run amok. The people in fly over country know her. She is them and they are her. Let your hubris consume you, we will prevail. Arrogance is your downfall.

Don't confuse me with facts, my mind is made up!
 
 
+21 # Guest 2010-05-12 09:01
Many of us out here in flyover country do know Palin, and we know that she's nuts. Try to turn this country into a theocracy and there will be another civil war. Which church should be in charge? Baptists? Methodists? Catholics? Mormons? Evangelicals? Lutherans? Under the right circumstances, any of them would cut the throats of the others because their theology wasn't straight. Christians who have their dander up are more bloodthirsty than the worst of the radicalized Muslim terrorists.
 
 
+11 # Guest 2010-05-12 15:29
First of all I am not her and she is not me. The only reason she got a spot in the national news was because of McCain...and who knows why that came to pass. knowing people like Sarah Palin in their own countries is why some came here in the first place. Seeing as how THE GREAT US of A was founded to help its people; to give freedom to those who want to make a better life for themselves and their families anyone who feels our government isn't doing its job when protecting those rights or thinks that only certain beliefs (their own) are covered Constitutionall y should take their cups and saucers and have a tea party in Alaska. One more thing, have you noticed how she has trouble just answering the simplest question? Unless, of course, the response is written on her hand or can be handled with another question. As for arrogance, how much more arrogant can you get than believing that fair hunting includes a power rifle, a night scope and a "flyover" helicopter?
 
 
+4 # Guest 2010-05-12 23:19
Gee paperpushermj, quite a little mental masturbation going on, eh? You and your kind can only realize your fantasies this way, ya' know.
 
 
0 # Guest 2010-05-22 18:10
Ummm. Kind of well said, paperpushermj, but what's your source? What particular point are you trying to dispute? Please use reason and logic and I will read your comments with an open mind.

p.s. Arrogance will be the downfall of us all.
 
 
-44 # Guest 2010-05-12 00:33
While I appreciate the general sentiment here, I have a lot of problems with this. The key authors of the Constitution, I would say, would be Madison, whose Virginia Plan was basic to its construction, and the 54 other delegates in the room. This did not include Jefferson, Paine, or Adams. How also can the Constitution be our first statement of concepts of the basis of law here when there was an entire previous constitution in the Articles of the Confederation? Actually, much of our law was in places like Blackstone's Commentaries. What is the point about when America became a nation? (This status was unclear to many even after the Constitution was ratified.) A really fair account would address the national days of thanksgiving and other aspects of the religious culture of many of the founders. lastly, the title is not the main point nor justified as worthy of scorn: many progressives believe the Bible is right, and would indeed trump Constitutional ideas like slaves as 3/5 persons.
 
 
+23 # Guest 2010-05-12 05:15
In the mid 1880's, when we were governed by the Articles of Confederation, the Virginia House of Delegates passed a law stating that Virginia would fund teachers of the Cristian Religion for each school district in Virginia. The following year during a debate about funding the law, James Madison wrote a lengthy open letter to the delegates opposing funding. In it, he argues for the absolute seperation of Church and State.

If I could summerize his ten page letter in one sentence, he said that any support or recognition of religion of any sort by the state denigrates both the state and the religion.
 
 
+6 # Guest 2010-05-12 00:51
I agree with the sentiments here about Palin's ignorance, but Ungar undermines his credibility when he presents Jefferson and Paine as authors of the Constitution. Jefferson did write the Declaration of Independence, but neither was involved in writing the Constitution. Both were abroad when it was written and neither of them promoted its ratification.
 
 
+10 # Guest 2010-05-12 07:09
I think you are taking the word 'write' too literally. Most of the drafting was done by James Madison and two others. However, virtually all historians agree that Jefferson and Adams had a major impact on the proceedings and what was included, Jefferson through his contact with Madison and Adams through the many political contacts he had at the Convention. You are not arguing that these two did not have enormous impact on the document, are you?
 
 
-18 # Guest 2010-05-12 00:57
Thomas Paine was a deist and he believed in God. The writer is advised to read The Age of Reason again for elucidation.
 
 
+15 # Guest 2010-05-12 08:56
That by no means proves that he believed this should be a Christian nation, not by a longshot.
 
 
+18 # Guest 2010-05-12 01:11
Excellent article. Although not in the mainstream press, it's always a great pleasure to hear the voice of reason and knowledge patiently arguing political fantasies. Thank you.
 
 
-70 # Guest 2010-05-12 01:14
America beacme what it was because of a God they trusted in and America slides farther and deeper into problems because of writers like you who are so cynical about the same God who brought America up.
Bring God back into America and see the difference..!
 
 
+16 # Guest 2010-05-12 08:06
whose god?

the pope's, zeus, odin, brahma, mohammed's? oh, i forgot there's only one the one that you believe exists.
 
 
+1 # Guest 2010-05-13 22:39
...AND DON'T FORGET GEORGE CASTANZA'S DAD'S CREATION, "FESTIVUS"...
 
 
+2 # Guest 2010-05-12 17:59
I would answer that God has never left America or anyplace else if you believe he/she is all-knowing and omnipresent. The God of the Bible repeatedly sent messengers to warn people and their leaders to behave justly to one another, to care for one another and the plants and animals he offered them for sustenance. When they disobeyed, he sent messengers to warn of eminent doom. If all messages were ignored, he sent destruction and plagues. He also sent messages on how to reform and get back on the straight and narrow. If they were listened to, he forgave and let them off the hook. See the book of Jonah where Jonah got mad for not destroying Ninevah and how God responded to Jonah showing him who was in charge.

We have a chance to reform and the messages have been sent. Palin is no messenger of anything Godly or righteous in Biblical terms. She's the anti-thesis as of many others taking God's name in vain. Shame on them!
 
 
+3 # Guest 2010-05-13 22:10
HA HAHAHA HA... BOBBIE, AMERICA BECAME WHAT IT IS BECAUSE OF DEEP, UNRELENTING GREED...EVERYBODY WANTED WHAT EVERYONE ELSE HAD & FOUGHT TO THE DEATH TO REALIZE IT FOR THEMSELVES. ASK NATIVE AMERICANS IF THEIR RACE WAS DESTROYED BECAUSE OF A WHITEMEN "GOD" OR BECAUSE OF WHAT THOSE WHITES COULD TAKE FROM THEM TO MAKE MONEY. ASK BLACKS IF THEIR FOREFATHERS WERE BROUGHT HERE BECAUSE OF A TRUSTFUL "GOD" OR FOR A DOLLAR TO BE MADE. ASK THE CHINESE & JAPANESE COMMUNITIES HOW WRETCHED THEIR AMERICAN ANCESTORS FARED UNDER THE CHRISTIAN "GOD". AMERICA WAS BUILT ON MURDER, AVARICE, PROSTITUTION, THEFT, SLAVERY, BRIBERY, GRAFT, JEALOUSY, HATRED, BRUTALITY, INTIMIDATION et al, & GROWS DAILY UNDER THEIR INFLUENCE...YOU DELUSION YOURSELF THINKING "GOD" HAD A HAND IN THAT, BOB...
 
 
0 # Guest 2010-05-22 18:19
It's not God or religion that I have a problem is --- there are mysteries after all. It's when people claim to know what God wants or means and defying all logic and compassion when they do so.

So, what do you mean by bringing America up? What exactly did God do?
 
 
+27 # Guest 2010-05-12 01:58
That more than a million have died in our wars for freedom, including freedom of religion, is not to be construed by Palin or anyone ekse, as a clarion call to restart America as a Christian fiefdom. Great response - we need to ignore Palin and she and her ilk will evaporate.
 
 
+36 # Guest 2010-05-12 02:21
Neocon rhetoric trumps the Bible. Palin and her crowd totally reject Matthew 25:31-46, fighting universal healthcare They are an uncharitable bunch of hell-bound goats.
 
 
+20 # Guest 2010-05-12 08:30
Please do not denigrate goats.
 
 
+5 # Guest 2010-05-12 21:40
The metaphor of the sheep vs. the goats is based on the observation that sheep will eat only the tops of plants while goats will eat even the roots. The idea is that some folks won't leave anything for the needy.

Personally I like goats. They make good milk for cheese and they are very tasty.

Neocons don't have the milk of loving kindness and they leave a bad taste in my mouth.
 
 
-24 # Mz. Cole 2010-05-12 02:56
Given that no religion was specified in any of the early documents, but rather they were worded such that religious freedom (including freedom from religion) was to be the established norm, those that wish to promote a sectarian system in the US need to accept that such a system would give equal presence and power to all relgions and not just one as they envision it.

The moral compass of society is so misaligned that a return to a religious foundation would be a good thing.
 
 
+4 # Guest 2010-05-12 18:10
It depends on what you mean by 'a religious foundation.' All religions embody strong ethical and moral components of how people should treat other people. They could all be boiled down to two words: Be polite!

Or: Be nice! Or: Be considerate!

If our country were transformed into one that recognized fundamental morality is about justice and fairness in all dealings, I would agree it would be a very good thing.
 
 
+8 # Merschrod 2010-05-12 02:59
Nice and concise, but continues to imply that there are different gods., e.g.,"most of them worship the God of Islam." The single God is the God of the Jewish, Christian and Islamic religions. To insinuate and propagate the theme that they worship different gods is not helpful at all.

Where the radical fundamentalists of the three religions share common ground is the tendency to refer to the traditional laws of the "Book" as absolute and superior to the laws written by "man." The fundamentalists , be they Christian, Jewish or Christian, hold that laws that come from a democratic process reflect the corrupt nature of humans and subvert the "laws of the maker" handed down by the Prophets. They rant against "legal activism" because it reflects changing culture and senses of justice. The was Wahhab's complaint, that was Jesus's complaint too. It is the complaint of al Qaeda's leadership too. They were/are seeking a World of one code.
 
 
+3 # Guest 2010-05-12 18:26
The disciples got into big spats about whether you could be a Christian if you were uncircumcised and did not follow other Judaic customs and rituals. They got together and sent messengers to the newly founded churches of Gentile converts saying that all you had to do was follow Christ's basic teachings such as loving your neighbor as yourself and also loving your enemy. I have always been amazed at the theological gymnastics of people trying to get around the fundamentals and diverting attention to cultural differences among believers or turning the churches into quasi-government institutions with power to tax and rule over one's every word thought and deed. Churches were supposed to be about getting together and praising God for his Blessings in the company of others, asking for guidance to do the right thing and the strength to do it. I have seen people do this in all kinds of places outside of church buildings, especially in private homes and in the open air.
 
 
+29 # Guest 2010-05-12 03:54
Well, we know that Sarah Palin is an idiot, but a dangerous one. She would willingly trash the actual Constitution in order to gain followers.
 
 
+7 # Guest 2010-05-12 18:38
She understands neither the Bible nor the Constitution. It's obvious every time she opens her mouth or comments on some social medium. Her appeal is her nastiness and meaness, her poisonous barbs, allowing her supporters to spurt and vomit up all that indigested venom they have been saving up for have been victimized and mistreated by elected officials and their handlers blaming anyone but themselves for sleeping on their rights, blaming the people who are trying to free them
 
 
+24 # Guest 2010-05-12 03:57
Sarah Palin is a disgrace to women and as
an american.And to think America rewarded
her good by making her a millionaire, by
buying her worthless book. The only thing
you can credit her for. Is trying her best
to insight a riot in our country,but she
can see Russia from her front door,
Whooopeee!
 
 
+29 # Guest 2010-05-12 03:59
Very well stated. Do you think that Palin and her followers will ever read or listen to this kind of reasoning ? They seem, unfortunately, to be carried away by their own ignorance, emotions,easy, pat solutions....
We have to educate our kids well....and make HISTORY an important, vital part of their lives !
 
 
-8 # Guest 2010-05-12 04:01
Send this 2 ways. See you at 9:00.
 
 
+11 # Guest 2010-05-12 04:07
she is so ignorant
 
 
+12 # Guest 2010-05-12 04:12
The more the news media publishes Sarah Palin's words, doings and acting, the more she gives credibility to the Democrats and the Democratic Party in particular. She is responsible for the good ol' white boyz (the GOP) being downgraded to senile fools! Women are about to take over the Republican Party and that is the danger or the cancer! Same as in the Democratic Party. Male politician rule with their pockets, most Democratic women (yes, Democratic Women) rule with their hearts and souls.

Where does that leave the Republican Women? It up to the bimbos like Sarah Palin. All the bimbo has to do is dye her hair blond...yeah, just like those bimbos on the FOX news.

Makes a person want to laugh, don't it?
 
 
+13 # Guest 2010-05-12 04:18
It's a pity when there are those who try to doctor the truth - like the Palin lady, and many others. Religions do no help all they do is break us apart
 
 
+3 # Guest 2010-05-12 04:24
Thomas Paine was not an author of the U.S. Constitution. He decided not to participate believing the Articles of Confederation were the basis for a suitable government.
 
 
+13 # Guest 2010-05-12 04:25
Our original settlers were not "Pilgrims" or Puritans. FL, VA, the Carolinas and NH were settled before the Puritans came. They did not come for religious freedom as they came from Holland where they found religious freedom. From their writings, they came for wealth and arrived in MA because they knew much of the Indian population there died from a fever caught from sailors. This made the area ripe for picking. Because the non-Puritan passengers intended to go to the Carolinas or VA, the Mayflower Compact was drawn so the small band of Puritans could keep these settlers from departing. Why do people think the Puritans came first? Abraham Lincoln made Thanksgiving a national holiday. Would it do then to proclaim the original settlers from FL or VA?
Because this untruth continues it drives home the author’s point, historical untruths can be seen as fact despite children learning in school St. Augustine is the first US settlement.
 
 
+14 # Guest 2010-05-12 05:44
The real problem here is that both this side and that see America as having begun with the settlers. Please let us remember that the trye Americans existed long before the settlers came. The unfortunate thing is that in the name of christianity we saw some of the worst of man's inhumanity to man.
 
 
+4 # Guest 2010-05-12 18:51
Read Andrew Jackson's inaugural address about how it was in the savages best interests to be removed from their lands so that they could be more easily Christianized. Of course, he left out the part of early settlers eager to take over the lands where gold had been discovered in North Georgia. It was all about greed and envy disguised as religious benevolence.
 
 
+14 # Guest 2010-05-12 04:59
The concept of "God" in the declaration of Independence refers to a DEISTIC tradition. That is, is a "God" as scientist who created the laws of nature - meaning the scientific laws that guide the natural universe. Thus, "When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the LAWS OF NATURE and of NATURE'S God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation."

Note that this is the language of the ENLIGHTENMENT and not of the Bible. The Declaration is using the arguments of the Enlightenment, and RATIONALITY
 
 
+6 # Guest 2010-05-12 18:59
Do you think that a single regular Fox News viewer has ever heard of the Age of Reason or Deists or Enlightenment or know how these movements influenced the Nation's Founders in setting down their ideals for a new kind of government?
 
 
+5 # Guest 2010-05-12 05:09
let the dead bury the dead
 
 
+11 # Deist 2010-05-12 05:22
Sarah, like many politicians, do not understand the Constitution. One point that is incorrect in the article is that Thomas Paine was a key author of the Constitution. Paine was in Europe at the time and did not take a direct part in it. However, Paine would never support the unification of religion and government since Thomas Paine was a Deist as reading his important book The Age of Reason, The Complete Edition makes very clear. In fact, in this book he call far a revolution in religion in which the nature and reason based Deism would replace the "revealed" religions.

Progress! Bob Johnson
www.deism.com
 
 
+19 # Guest 2010-05-12 06:13
The Comedy: is Sarah Palin, who is nothing, but an ignorant clown and buckraker.

The Tragedy: are the millions who believe her nonsense.
 
 
+23 # Guest 2010-05-12 06:16
The worst thing McCain ever did was to pluck her out of oblivion.
 
 
+10 # Guest 2010-05-12 09:50
In my humble opinion.., the self inflicted decline and fall of John McCain from his 'high statesman plateau' to that of just another self involved, wealthy political hack has been an amazing sight to see in my lifetime.
And look.., now he's in the political fight of his life against the Tea Party agenda.
What does John McCain really stand for besides himself..?
And it was just that thought within the question which ultimately unleashed the likes of Palin on America..
 
 
+15 # Guest 2010-05-12 06:19
The Comedy is Sarah Palin, who is nothing, but an ignorant clown and buckraker.
The Tragedies are the millions of Conservative Republicans, who believe her nonsense.
The Tragedies are the millions of Progressive Liberals who are unable to couterattack effectively.
 
 
+10 # Guest 2010-05-12 06:24
That's it! I am demanding to see the birth certificate of the United States of America. And if you produce it immediately then I don't think the US is fit to rule the world.
 
 
+5 # Guest 2010-05-12 06:35
The goal of the Christian right / Sarah Palin et al is to put God back into the workings of the “State”. And there’s the rub for keeping Church and State separate – not necessarily “God”. The American Christian right want “Christ” and only “Christ” that is "the God” as I understand it, that they speak about…in whom they “believe”! CONTINUED....
 
 
+4 # Guest 2010-05-12 06:36
I consider myself a “Christian” but I was brought up Catholic so I believe in God (Father) / God (son-Christ) / God (the Holy Spirit) but at the same time I KNOW and UNDERSTAND that the name(s) of the God of my “religion / church” is the SAME God of the Jew / Yahweh (God of Abraham); the Muslim / Allah (also God of Abraham) founded by Muhammad. And, that this same God is known as Buddha, Krishna and many other names to many other peoples yet no matter what name this Creative Force is called or known as it is the same God… God will always be God… Religion / Church can change daily according to one’s belief system and not even a Christian who resides in Maine may believe the same as one residing in Alaska – the only constant is that God will always remain God!
 
 
0 # Guest 2010-05-22 18:29
Buddha never claimed to be a god.
 
 
+14 # Guest 2010-05-12 06:39
We are amused by the ancient gods - Zeus, Poseidon, etc., as if they weren't wholly revered and believed to be actual by real civilizations for thousands of years. Some day, the "one" god will join the many in the pantheon of mystical misconceptions. In the meantime, how about doing "god's work" by taking care of "the least among us" (Jesus bible talk) with health care. No-no-no-no-no! That's just an idea from that crazy black guy!
 
 
+23 # Guest 2010-05-12 06:55
Sarah Palin is fact-free! Tina Fey is far better qualified than she to be our president.
 
 
+10 # Guest 2010-05-12 12:04
You've got it! Tina Fey for president! If it were between her and Palebrain, I'd take Tina any day.
 
 
+3 # Guest 2010-05-13 22:22
...AND HOW ABOUT PAULA ABDUL FOR THE SUPREME COURT 'CAUSE SHE'S GOT A TRACK RECORD AS A JUDGE & ISN'T THAT WHAT REPUKES WANT?!?!?!?
 
 
-24 # Guest 2010-05-12 07:05
Thomas Jefferson was a follower of Jesus Christ. Have you read the Jefferson Bible? Perhaps you should.
 
 
+11 # Guest 2010-05-12 11:25
You mean the version were he takes out all the supernatural nonsense from the New Testament and focuses on the philosophical implications of Jesus' teachings? I have read it and it is neither proof that he was a follower of the church nor that he believed that it should be intregal in the implementation of law. Maybe you should read it.
 
 
+6 # Deist 2010-05-12 13:14
He was not a Christian in that he did not believe Jesus was the son of God or that he was a savior. That would disqualify him from being a Christian. Also, he believed Jesus was a Deist who attempted to correct the Deism of the Jews and was killed for it. In the Jefferson Bible he cut out everything in the Gospels which were unreasonable such as miracles, raising the dead, etc. Jefferson was much more a Deist than a Christian.

Progress! Bob Johnson
www.deism.com
 
 
+4 # Guest 2010-05-12 19:10
You might read the Jefferson Koran while you are at it. He had quite a library. I have hundreds of books in my own library for the purpose of researching and understanding history, culture and the religion of others. It does not mean I agree with or am a follower of any of them. That's also what highly educated people like Jefferson did and continue to do. Try it! Christ would applaud it! He never told his followers to wallow in single-minded ignorance nor to isolate themselves in self-congratulating and self-reinforcing, exclusivity. Quite the contrary.
 
 
+18 # Guest 2010-05-12 07:07
Let's be honest here. Palin and her ilk do not advocate or follow the Bible. What they want is their own, modern interpretation of the Bible that allows for their own behaviors to be justified by a higher power while others are condemned by same. It's just the same routine that's been seen for many centuries - "Follow me and you will be blessed."
 
 
+6 # Guest 2010-05-12 19:15
Notice that Sarah Palin never appears anywhere or in any forum where her statements can be challenged or countered with facts and reality. I would love to see her quizzed on details of the Constitution and/or the Bible to show her audience how little she really knows about either.
 
 
+18 # Guest 2010-05-12 07:09
Merging Government and Religion corrupts both.

Can you think of any examples where the above is not true?
 
 
+13 # Guest 2010-05-12 07:10
In Religious Literacy: What Every American Needs to Know - and Doesn't, the author Stephen Prothero argues that understanding the core tenets of the various religions practiced in this country, and the world, is important because public policy arguments continue to be rooted in religious rhetoric the meanings of which are either deliberately or ignorantly misunderstood, misinterpreted, or misapplied. Thus, Palin can make such statements and her fans have no idea how off base she is.
 
 
+14 # Guest 2010-05-12 07:18
When Christians demand that organized prayer be returned to public schools I pose the following hypothetical situation to them:

Better still, remind them that Jesus himself opposed public prayer!!!

(Matthew 6:5)

"And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward."

It's also worth reminding them that Jesus said absolutely NOTHING about abortion or homosexuality.... nor did he ever say that slavery was morally wrong!
 
 
+9 # Guest 2010-05-12 07:19
Seems we have a new word... PALINDRONES...
I always knew she'd become famous for something other than seeing things.. and just saying stuff...
 
 
+8 # Guest 2010-05-12 14:01
I would suggest "Palin-drone" be defined as: "The ongoing spewing of country pseudo-witticisms to describe the function of, for example, the world economy."
 
 
+5 # Guest 2010-05-12 14:58
I disagree. "Palin-drone" should be define as someone with a vision who can see Russia from her porch in Alaska.

And to think they blame Mexico for all the drugs coming into the country. The weed is the highest source of income grown in Alaska. But she can't tell a lie like Bill (I didn't inhale) Clinton, she actually was tied to the drug addiction. So was GW Bush.

Welcome to the USA, folks, where everything goes and where every idiot lives in an unrealistic world.
 
 
+8 # Guest 2010-05-12 07:30
Too bad the authors of the Constitution didn't phrase it "Freedom From Religion". The country needs to be vigilant about this current Christian movement because this minority has control of the debate and always seems to get the last word.
 
 
+11 # Guest 2010-05-12 07:31
A really good reference: Freethinkers, a History of American Secularism by Susan Jacoby. Anyway, since no two people can agree what God is or what God thinks, let alone "says", why would we allow self-appointed pious hypocrites tell us how God wants our government to function? Jesus said in Matthew that love of money is the root of all evil, so to let the conservatives like those on the Supreme Court hand over virtual reign to corporations--whose only rule is the love of money--should show how crazy these people are.
 
 
+9 # Guest 2010-05-12 07:38
It is not at all strange that Palin should equate the Bible and the Constitution, for she and the religious fundamentalism she represents give both the same epistemological status: Absolute. The code words for this claim to authoritarianis m are "inerrancy" and "original intent." One of the reasons for separation of church and state is that, while we are free to regard the Bible as sacred, i.e., infallible, the Constitution is secular, i.e., subject to emendation and interpretation. The danger in equating the two is that a religious document supplants the political, resulting in a theocracy. A craving for certainty and control is at base what drives this arrogance. To turn a phrase, eternal vigilance is the only defense against religious intolerance.
 
 
-8 # Guest 2010-05-13 01:20
For some one who is trying over hard to demonstrate 'knowledge' you sure do have a surprising lack of it.
 
 
+4 # Guest 2010-05-13 10:18
Ruler:

Just what are you referring to? Your lack of understanding does not equate to their lack of knowledge.
 
 
+7 # Guest 2010-05-12 07:45
This article has two huge problems. First, the Constitution was not created in a vacuum: the Magna Carta and Roman law were part of the unwritten law which some of the Amendments of the Constitution refer to.. In the Bible Book of Acts, St. Paul is brought before the Roman governor, and cites due process. Palin is ignorant, but not completely wrong. In the Constitution, privacy refers to the Magna Carta and earlier documents. Also, "society" is the victim of crimes, and victims are "witnesses", their rights are unwritten, referring to earlier laws.

Secondly: it is just like Palin in an ignorant mix-up to equate Progressive or Liberal ideology with atheism or the eradication of God from our civil society. And you will turn millions of Americans against all the rest of us Progressives who want to explain healthcare, environment, etc., and get their votes.
 
 
+11 # feloneouscat 2010-05-12 07:53
Isn't Palin's 15 minutes of fame, like, over?

There seems to be more written about this political know-nothing than seems warrant. Yes, we know she is pretty darn clueless. We know she has about as much self-awareness as an amoeba. She frequently engages her mouth and turns off the brain.

So why do writers (both on the left and the right) seem so obsessed with her? Bill Buckley she isn't!

So she confuses God, the Constitution and pudding. Big deal. I can find neighbors in Texas that do the same thing. And are far more learned and interesting than Palin.

I'm tired of reading about "how she doesn't understand XXX". Of course she doesn't. We know that. Yes, we get that she doesn't understand governance. She proved it. Over and over and over again.

Beating dead horses can be fun, I know I've done it quite frequently, but this is merely rehashing the rehashed.

Short book: "What Palin is an Expert On".
 
 
+5 # Guest 2010-05-12 14:51
It could be idiots love idiots. And the US is full of them from Alaska to Arizona. But, this is the USA and it's a constitutional right to be stupid.

Being stupid is the on-going trend now. It's fashionable. Being stupid is to be republican.

Odd, being intelligent. Try to be intelligent was the norm in pre-education USA not too long ago.

And remember, these idiots want to run the country again.
 
 
+3 # Guest 2010-05-12 19:26
We no longer have much in the way of news media. It's all entertainment, sports, weather and traffic with a headline or two thrown in. Palin is a provocative entertainer and knows she can make money at it as do her handlers and agents. Why did we have to hear about Paris Hilton's every move for months on end? or any other celebrity with a big PR budget? Put down that remote!
 
 
+10 # Guest 2010-05-12 07:58
The notion that our laws are founded on the ten commandments is indefensible. Our laws prohibit killing humans and stealing from them (that's two commandments) and in SOME cases lying (under oath, or to defraud). And that's it. Two and one-half commandments out of ten are in common with our laws.

We have no laws against worshiping idols, or against swearing, or failing to attend religious services, or failing to honor our parents, or adultery, or coveting. (In fact, coveting is the very backbone of the capitalist economic system.)
 
 
+4 # Guest 2010-05-12 19:32
I thought idol worship had made a big comeback. Hollywood and TV made sure it did. So did professional sports and amateur sports down to the level of t-ball. Who WILL be the next American IDOL?
 
 
+6 # Guest 2010-05-12 08:00
Most of the founders were NOT Christian. Some were deists. Several were Unitarians--John Adams (who wrote the Massachusetts constitution on which the U.S. one is based--Thomas Paine, Jefferson, who wrote the Jefferson Bible which was the Bible with all the offending parts cut out. For the best book on this, read the Reverend Forrest Church's book, So Help Me God. It's complicated so many people will not want to read it.
 
 
+11 # sinig88 2010-05-12 08:25
It is quite apparent that the only thing that Sarah Palin is interested in is MONEY MONEY MONEY. She is totally not qualified to run for the Presidency of the United States. She does not have the intelligence, or background for the Job. Sarah Palin, the Leader of the Most Powerful Country in the World? It boggles the mind. We would be the laughing stock of the World. Can you imagine her consulting with the heads of the other countries??? Unbelievable... If the Tea/Party members get her into Office, then there will be a few of we older people, leave the country and migrate to Canada, or Sweden, or Italy, or whatever. I for one, would be one of the first......
 
 
+5 # Guest 2010-05-12 19:44
Sarah is also interested in fame. She thrives on the attention. It makes her glow. She likes the limelight, the applause and she knows where and how to get it. Give her credit for that. She's good at delivering nasty jabs and barbs that set the fat jowls chortling and snorting and snickering. Give her credit for that. She good at airing people's unshakable prejudices and fears of being dispossessed by immigrants and the less fortunate while promoting the failed religion of deregulation and free markets, government for the superrich, and no taxes for anything. Reagan did it, Bush did it. Why can't she do it? It's the same illiterate, poorly educated, fat and unhappy electorate that elected them that are standing in line to applaud Palin's mean-spiritedness. What's changed?
 
 
+8 # Guest 2010-05-12 09:01
It is not important that the individual founding fathers may or may not have believed in god, what is important is that they realized the necessity of keeping religious belief out of governance. There was a debate on this subject at the time, and the anti-establishment group won. The first words of the first amendment are about separation of church and state. Ever since the Constitution was ratified christian zealots have been trying to remake history and claim that the Constitution is christianity based. It just ain't so.
 
 
+6 # Guest 2010-05-12 09:02
Well, the Pilgrim Fathers wanted religious freedom for themselves, not others. Mary Dyer was executed on Boston Common, 1 June 1660, for the crime of refusing to disavow her Quaker faith. Her statue now stands on Boston Common. The Quakers of Pennsylvania, who first hung the Liberty Bell, stood for religious freedom for all.
 
 
+11 # Guest 2010-05-12 09:12
This comment from a rara avis, a man of faith and a Christian: It is well established that our nation's founders did not wish for government to favor any religion over another nor impose religious practice on anyone. The Constitution is the law of the land. Palin and Company are pretty clueless. Things like school prayer or even the In God We Trust on our money (added in 1954 in a burst of anti-Communist spirit) have no place in this country. Our founders had that right. But I do note that the Declaration of Independence does mention a higher power though it does not specify whose higher power they are talking about. Historically, Presidents have always declared days of fasting, prayer and the like so President Obama's recent prayer day proclamation is nothing new. Palin and O'Reilly should check their Bible's. Christ told his followers to pray behind a closed door in private and not in the public square as hypocrites do. Now we know what Palin is.
 
 
+6 # Guest 2010-05-12 09:55
Beautifully written. Thank you.
 
 
+7 # Guest 2010-05-12 10:26
It never ceases to amaze me how many people in this country believe in all this garbage that the right wing christian crazies spout. Best of all they have the nerve to look down their noses at people who don't subscribe to their nonsense. Palin, besides being an idiot is nothing than a pandering mouthpiece for them. Too bad they won't just mind their own business and leave the rest of us alone.
 
 
+7 # Guest 2010-05-12 11:34
Actually, Muslims, Sarah, and I actually pray to the same God. But when she speaks about the 10 Commandments being the foundation of law in this country, she means her interpretation, and hers only. I observe Jesus said to love God and love others as yourself is all the 10 Commandments and more (Matthew 22:36)
Incidentally, historical revisionists in other countries are either trying to compensate for guilt, or, more often fear of being left behind by a society that no longer needs or values them or what they represent--like Japanese history textbooks that understate or deny WW11 war crimes.
 
 
+4 # Guest 2010-05-12 12:21
Thomas Paine was not at the Convention those his writings certainly affected some of the thought processes involved.
 
 
+6 # Guest 2010-05-12 13:20
One of the first commandments was against usury and another was to offer hospitality to strangers at the door in need of food and shelter. I don't hear Palin and her following paying any attention to these and other commandments or the teachings of love for one's neighbors and enemies as well. I don't hear them insisting we go back to the exhortations to care for the sick, those in prison, the hungry and homeless, and those who are persecuted for the sake of righteousness.

She is a fake as are those who claim to be Christians while turning Biblical teachings inside out and upside down.
 
 
-7 # Guest 2010-05-13 01:18
Learn the Bible, don't just make stuff up about its meaning.
 
 
-10 # Guest 2010-05-13 06:50
BJ, The first commandment is have "no other gods before me," something any real Christian would have known. Instead you take on Satans role of making accusations against the elect. The truth is that Christians have been helping the poor and sick for thousands of years. I would hardly call the left wing issues of abortion and same sex marriage righteous, these behaviors need to be rebuked. If your god is the welfare state you need to recognize that it changes no ones heart, it only gives power and honor to man.
 
 
+5 # Guest 2010-05-13 19:10
Preaching righteous, waving flag and bible (and guns in the case of the TEA Partiers) is nothing but pure evil and hypocrisy in today's "Christian" USA.

It is these "Christian" soldiers that were torturing, maiming children, women, old people and innocent Iraq noncombatants civilians in Iraq.

It only prove that of all the religions in the world, Christianity is the worst of the lot!
 
 
+11 # Guest 2010-05-12 13:41
"Going to church doesn't make you a Christian anymore than going into the garage makes you a Chevrolet."

Will Rogers
 
 
+9 # Guest 2010-05-12 13:50
The problem is that the people who need to acknowledge these facts will either ignore them or dismiss them. These people don't appear to let facts get in the way of their blind beliefs.
 
 
+7 # Guest 2010-05-12 14:36
I would add that our constitution was written very much in reaction to hundreds of years of witch hunts, pagan purges, religious persecution, imprisonment, torture, estate robbery and exiles in Europe, and the collusion of church and state that resulted from the continuous power struggle between the Protestant and Catholic wings of the great beast.
 
 
-9 # Guest 2010-05-13 01:16
Sarah Pail is correct. It's our government that pays no attention to the Constitution or the Bible. Learn your U.S. History, people. Being an indoctrinated public school moron doesn't mean you 'know' anything but socialist dogma. The fact is that the founders were VERY religious and that the Constitution was in fact largely based on Biblical principles. Ignoring that only makes you ignorant, not smart. It's today's government (including Bush) that is abusing the Constitution. WTF are rules if you don't use them? Especially if it's for the best for your country? This isn't some liberal soccer mom kids league where no score is kept so we can all feel good about ourselves. Wake up!
 
 
0 # Guest 2010-05-22 18:51
Ummm. Ruler4You, where were you educated? There are a lot of accomplished people who were educated in public institutions.

What's your proof of the religiousity of the founding dads? What is this socialist dogma you speak of? Where's your proof? Give me a few quotes, sayings or references so I can do some research and make my own judgments.
 
 
-8 # Guest 2010-05-13 03:37
William Penn wrote, We are either governed by God or ruled by tyrants.

That was years before the revolution. There is a difference between "establishing" a God-inspired nation and "legislating" one.

Go read every state constitution in this country. They nearly all refer to God.

Our nation has become a God-less mob, this motif in the Bible reveals that the God-less mob brings nothing but hatred and destruction, e.g. Lot and the Crucifixion of Christ, both faced mobs.

In order to form a more perfect union...to "establish", not legislate...we hold these truths to be self evident...endowed by a Creator!

Spin it all you want, but it's as true today as in was for William Penn and before.
 
 
+4 # Guest 2010-05-13 15:47
Gee Paul, I am a Quaker descendant of William Penn. Our family reveres him to this day.

It is most unQuakerly to say this, but:
"Thou art full of crapola."

My ancestor thought that God ruled man but that man could not be trusted to rule man on God's behalf. He, like Quakers in general, regard religious belief to be highly personal and we keep our religious institutions small for a reason.

"Establishing" a God inspired nation and legislating one IS ONE AND THE SAME THING. My ancestors didn't advocate this in any sense and you are worse than spinning, you are lying.

Both William Penn, George Fox, our religious founder, and the majority of Quakers over time have severely rued the criminally militaristic aspects of human culture and trust me, you'd better hope that our religion or any other is never influential to national governance. If we were, we'd completely eliminate the military industrial complex in a heart beat. (Heck, that might a good thing!)
 
 
0 # Guest 2010-05-13 18:28
* "If thou wouldst rule well, thou must rule for God, and to do that, thou must be ruled by him....Those who will not be governed by God will be ruled by tyrants." — William Penn

Yeah Daniel that's what the point is...it is a personal relationship with God that is to inspire us, not self-love.

For a descendant of Penn you don't seem to do much reading of any Holy Scriptures. So get off your high horse and get down to where I have "lied"?
 
 
+1 # Guest 2010-05-13 20:09
Quoting
* "If thou wouldst rule well, thou must rule for God, and to do that, thou must be ruled by him....Those who will not be governed by God will be ruled by tyrants." — William Penn
Yeah Daniel that's what the point is...it is a personal relationship with God that is to inspire us, not self-love.
For a descendant of Penn you don't seem to do much reading of any Holy Scriptures. So get off your high horse and get down to where I have "lied"?

I was refering to your IMPLICIT lies born of highely selective recitations. Penn was NOT an authority on Quakerism and George Fox and generations of Quaker scholars following did have some vivid disputes with Penn, who, by the way, contradicted himself with frequency. But you, who are more scholarly than I evidently, will have already discovered this I'm sure.
You abuse the concept of a personal relationship with God if you think it has ANYTHING to do with state governance. Read Fox to depth instead.
 
 
+1 # Guest 2010-05-13 04:06
I am certainly not a fan of Palin but there are several historical problems in the article. First, as pointed out Jefferson, Adams, and Paine not at the Convention. Second, at the time of the writing of the Constitution- 9 of 13 colonies had "established" religions (state supported). Religious freedom/toleration existed but religous favortism existed as well. Third, Palin is somewhat correct- Judeo-Christian values are the basis for our laws(beacuse they are the basis for English law). Both Washington, Madison, and Adams all commented on the fact that if these were removed from our form of government then our form of government could not function correctly.
I would also add that a National Day of Prayer does not mean you have to pray, it only encourages the observance/acknoledgement of a higher being. Clearly in all the writings from Franklin (a diest)to Madison they believed that their "unalienable" rights were given to them form a higher power and no man could take them away.
 
 
+3 # Guest 2010-05-13 16:02
Your conclusion is too big a stretch Douglas. Hammurabi precedes English law and English law itself more often manipulated theology to it's ends than the reverse. Influential to English law were ancient Grecian principles as well, and furthermore, early American law was influenced by concepts articulated by the Iroquois in the north east. I think religious thought in the framing of our Constitution was more incidental to our state of cultural mindset than any aspect of religion that was causal to it.

As for your last comment: Lets not get confused. Inalienable rights that are a given...a consequence of the nature of being human, need not be conceived as a gift handed over by a creator. The redness of an apple is not it's creators gift...it is what its creator made it to be. These things are not within the capacity of men to take away...that which was a given in the first place. An unalienable right is an unalienable right even if legislated against!
 
 
-4 # Guest 2010-05-13 18:31
You say you're a Quaker?

What you get without God's Goverance on a personal level, not legislated, but formed into a more and more perfect union...what you get is a God-less mob ruled by tyrants, left, right, conservative, liberal.

You need to open your eyes, Daniel.
 
 
+1 # Guest 2010-05-13 20:23
Quoting
You say you're a Quaker?
What you get without God's Goverance on a personal level, not legislated, but formed into a more and more perfect union...what you get is a God-less mob ruled by tyrants, left, right, conservative, liberal.
You need to open your eyes, Daniel.

Yes indeed, I am a Quaker through and through and like a good Quaker, was raised to ALWAYS doubt authority. I come from a family of Quaker ministers no less. Even in our own community, no one may rule. They may only serve the community, a community quite vocal about it's needs and wants.

My eyes are open Paul. You should examin the beam in yours. What makes you think God's Governance on a personal level has anything at all to do with governance among men. We think it has nothing to do with it at all. We see God everywhere, in every face. If we allow anyone's perception of God to prevail, a God that transcends all human definition, that is what leads to depraved tyranny.
 
 
-11 # Guest 2010-05-13 05:16
Seperation of Church and State does not exist in the Constitution .
The ACLU (American Communist Liberation Union) has already lost that case in court.
The best they were able to come up with to the judge was that it's implied.
Like it or not the United States of America was founded on Judea/Christian principles.
Not the principles of Marx,Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Castro, Hitler etc.
The Communist left may want to look to see who the founder of the ACLU was.
Hitler with his National Socialist Party was called liberal, progressive and to the left. Mexico gave safe haven to Nazi sympathizers and spies. Hell, Joe Kennedy admired Hitler.
The liberal left has great pedigree.
 
 
-6 # Guest 2010-05-13 08:08
The Constitution actually contains two explicit Judeo-Christian references. But then only those with an IQ above 3 can locate them. Try Article 1, Section 7 and Article 3, Section 3.

The answers are there for those with eyes to see.

The idea that the founding document of US are not based on judeo-christian values is a modern invention of the anointed. They may believe what they wish. They will pay the price.

Tiocfaidh ar la!
 
 
0 # Guest 2010-05-22 19:01
Ummm. I just looked up Article 1 Section 7...no reference to religion, just on signing a bill into law. The other article quoted has to do with treason. Are you trying to trick me into reading the constitution? What do you mean by explicit references?
 
 
+5 # Guest 2010-05-13 08:59
There's a small town very near us populated by a majority of Lutherans...however, they belong to two different synods and have two separate buildings for congregating. They hate each other so much they won't let their children intermarry or even be friends...they won't shake hands with each other...this is a town of perhaps 400 people.
 
 
+4 # Guest 2010-05-13 13:39
Matthew 6 5-6 "And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men....when thou prayest, enter into thy closet and when thou has shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret...."
 
 
+4 # Guest 2010-05-13 16:10
Quoting
Matthew 6 5-6 "And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men....when thou prayest, enter into thy closet and when thou has shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret...."


I always admired this portion of scripture because it encourages my belief that people should keep their religious practices to themselves and not lord them over the rest of us. This compliments the separation of church and state.
 
 
+1 # Guest 2010-05-13 18:52
Ok...i'm responding to this too. Yes, no one is to Lord it over anybody else. This is what the Bible teaches.

I work in an institutionaliz ed church. I don't like the "system", it's corrupt, but we striving for perfection. The perfect world will be when Christ rules in each persons heart. Then we can do away with all institutions, systems and governments. Until then, we have to work with what we have and we have some moral clarity when our hearts are governed by God...the Christian One who wrote the Bible.

Now, in my opinion, there is only one way to God, that is thru His Son, Jesus Christ. However, there are many ways to Christ, and anyone seeking Truth, thru whatever belief system or religion, including all of them, can find Christ. The Bible is the level, straight road.
 
 
+3 # Guest 2010-05-13 20:38
Okay Paul. What ever. But you seem to overlook the possibility that God himself transcends the Bible, and Christ is not a diety which I am sure you are aware. What about the people who find God without Christ? What about the ancients who predate Christ? What if the Bible wasn't the last word and what if God is still speaking but sadly, we aren't listening? And isn't it the point that our hearts should be governed by love which, coincidently, is His very essence? Personally, I have found the Bible to be rather circuitous and I am mindful that the scirptures are a compilation from a larger body of texts many of which the early Catholic Church decided didn't count. Quite frankly, I do my best to listen. I think that makes for productive prayer. I find the idea of confining God to the Bible to be unfair to Him. He is bigger than this surely!
We would both not want to trade churchs but we are both Christians! Good thing church and state are seperated.
 
 
+2 # Guest 2010-05-14 06:12
Anybody that wants the institutionaliz ed church in government is not seeing why we are founded to be free to worship God as we see fit. Again, establishing, i.e., forming a nation governed by God is indeed different from legislating the same. You seem to want to argue something that I have no argument about.

Personally I believe Christ is God. Moreover, Truth is Truth...wherever it is found. I believe the Bible is the straight and narrow road. There are other ways to Christ, they just have 'problems' that I can do without.

As far as what the Catholics did to the Bible. The West and the East both agreed on what was to be canonized before the split. If you look at the Eastern Orthodox Church, which is as old and the Roman Catholics, they use the same Bible that most Protestants use. So, I don't buy this corruption of the Bible by the Roman Catholics. The RC Church has been corrupt and still is in some ways, but all man-ruled institutions are.
 
 
+2 # Guest 2010-05-14 12:53
Paul, I am an arrogant ass at times. I confess that I get ahead of myself sometimes. I should do a better job of listening and reading before I write. You have my respect and splitting hairs for sport is unbecoming of me.

A nod to you good man!
 
 
+3 # Guest 2010-05-14 18:53
Thanks for the nod. Far from good, though.

I have sought from my earliest memory to have the Spirit of Truth as my greatest friend. However, at 50 years of age, I question if this has only been for selfish reasons. Thank God, my sometimes, often times unpleasant journey is still a work in progress.
 
 
0 # Guest 2010-05-18 20:19
... a very inconvenient quote containing the essence of Jesus's message.
 
 
+1 # Guest 2010-05-13 13:40
Thomas Paine was not an author of the Constitution. In 1787 when the Constitutional Convention met in Philadelphia, he was living in Europe and would not return to the United States until 1802.
 
 
+4 # Guest 2010-05-13 14:12
The founders of this country, up to and including the framers of the Constitution--having escaped aristocratic and theocratic tyranny in Europe--very consciously and deliberately did everything within their power to create an independent, secular government with built-in separation-of-power mechanisms designed to prevent the rise of either political or theocratic dictatorships. To say that they desired a theocracy is pure fabrication. And, since you asked, my IQ is 183. Labeling and name calling provoke anger and kill dialog. What's wrong with working toward peaceful co-existence?
 
 
+1 # Guest 2010-05-13 19:09
I think you better learn some real history because the same Congress that passed the Constitution, passed the Northwest Ordinance. Article 3 says "Religion, morality, and knowledge, being necessary to good government and the happiness of mankind, schools and the means of education shall forever be encouraged." In other words, they are saying that these three things should be taught in schools. Also, many of the states had state religions well into the 1800's...so the original intent of the Constitution was NOT to exclude all religion from government, it was to prevent the Federal government from creating a national religion and punishing those who do not practice it. You may not like that fact, but that is a fact.
 
 
+1 # Guest 2010-05-13 20:51
Okay Stacy. I'll bite.

My response is: soooo what. I forbid the government from teaching my children anything about religion. I am Christian and I will not allow the state to tarnish my faith by drawing any aspect of it into the affairs of state. Oh, and since when did the Northwest Ordinance preempt the Constitution? To the extent that there was any combination of religion and state in the first place, I condem it completely. I think any combination of state and religion, any religion, is specificly unholy, sacreligious, dangerous, hypcrytical and pathetic. I don't even care if religion ever had a place in America's history as a country. It obviously has led to nothing good at all. Now why should I blame religion for the state's corruption of it? Why should I blame the state for religion's corruption of it? I say neither and that the nation would be a better place if the two never, ever joined.
 
 
-4 # Guest 2010-05-14 19:07
Evil exists because people forget God. I agree though it is not the states responsibility to make them remember, it is the parents. But it is also not the states right to expel God from public discourse.

The Book of Proverbs can be interpreted, simply, if you let your community go to hell you will not raise angels. So, there is something that must be said about education and culture. In my opinion, banning God is not the answer.
 
 
+1 # Guest 2010-05-14 19:27
Daniel, I'm not a scholar of Quakerism, I was fascinated by some of the Mennonite readings I have happened to find. But I did find this from your suggestion of researching George Fox. This is apparently a modern 'journal' article from a 'Quaker' university, citing common misconceptions about separation of church and state.

Find it here:

www.georgefox.edu/journalonline/spring09/rethinking.html
 
 
0 # Guest 2010-05-15 23:36
Thank you Paul for a very worthy read. I wish I could say that Quaker thought wasn't as fractured as it is at times, but it is. Many would insist on a pure separation of church and state regardless of the intentions of the founding fathers either way. The article you've had me read was quite interesting but please bare in mind that coming from a Quaker scholar does not make for doctrine. The article makes a very strong argument in favor of founding father intentions, though divergent, not being as absolute as Jefferson's. (I had to chuckle at being reminded about how Washington disliked Quakers for not being willing to fight in the Revolution! A few did, of course!)
 
 
+3 # Guest 2010-05-14 03:11
Briefly, the United States has become many bad things that are now overwhelming and drowning us because it exploited free (slaves) and cheap (China & Mexico) labor, free resources stolen from native peoples, capitalist corporate values of profit before humanity, powerful investments in weaponry, imperialistic diplomacy, and other things taught by our fine and beautiful Bible interpreters. Now that's a fair God anyone can believe in!
 
 
+1 # Guest 2010-05-14 19:45
The first shall be last and the last shall be first. Justice is coming...hope we're ready.
 
 
+1 # Guest 2010-05-19 21:23
You can believe one theory or the other. The one theory is that a supernatural being CREATED the universe. The other theory is that the universe EVOLVED from nothing. There are no other theories possible. It doesn't matter which one you choose to believe, because both are way beyond our ken. Just pick one and
don't argue with me if I picked the other. I promise not to smirk at you when I find out which one you chose.
 
 
0 # Guest 2010-05-22 19:14
What you say makes sense, my brother...it is beyond our ken to ever know, so why argue?

Feel the love...it's a product of evolution. ;-}
 

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