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Ash writes: "Non-violence has been bedrock to the meteoric success the Movement has achieved, and to the support the Movement has enjoyed.  Those who sought to take that for themselves last night through their violent actions have no chance of attracting any broad-based support from anyone for any purpose.  That simply will not happen."

An Anarchist symbol painted on a window in Oakland last night, 11/02/11. (photo: Noah Berger/AP)
An Anarchist symbol painted on a window in Oakland last night, 11/02/11. (photo: Noah Berger/AP)



Anarchy v. Non-Violence, The Movement Is Tested

By Marc Ash, Reader Supported News

03 November 11

 

hat started out as a triumph for local community organizers descended into anarchy last night in the streets of Oakland, California.

Yesterday's remarkably ambitious plan by Occupy Oakland organizers to coordinate a General Strike actually succeeded to a greater extent than anyone had predicted. Adhering strictly to non-violent civil resistance guidelines, a march into the heart of Oakland's port district resulted in the world's 5th largest port being shut down. A truly stunning achievement.

The focus of events then moved back to the city's center, the area surrounding Frank Ogawa Plaza (renamed Oscar Grant Plaza by Occupy Oakland participants), where police one week ago rousted the Occupy Oakland encampment. From there things turned ugly quickly. While details are still sketchy, it appears that small splinter factions broke away from the Occupy Oakland march and began to basically trash Downtown Oakland -- indiscriminately.

The damage in the Downtown area was fairly extensive. Moreover, there appeared to be some degree of coordination of the part of those who sought to drive events in a violent direction. Black clothing, black masks and the anarchist symbol marked the identity of those who sought to turn what had been a disciplined non-violent action into a riot.

There seemed to be a consensus on the part of Occupy Oakland organizers, Oakland Police and local residents that the violence was being committed by a select few and not representative of the broader Occupy Movement. Occupy Oakland organizers apparently endeavored to mitigate the scope of the damage last night and to further confront those responsible this morning. The Occupy Oakland camp meeting this morning was tense, bordering on open conflict as calls for further violence by "black-bloc" elements were met with staunch resistance from Occupy Oakland organizers, almost leading to blows.

As many have noted, Oakland is rapidly becoming a focal point for the international Occupy Movement. The Movement which has gained an amazing degree of respect and momentum in a remarkably short period of time, is now fundamentally challenged by a small group of individuals who would basically commandeer the movement wholesale and convert it to their vision.

The Occupy Movement is not just the Oakland encampment. It is a world-wide movement of dedicated activists working in a very focused way to effect change. The broad-based support that the Occupy actions enjoy is based on their level of achievement and the manner in which the demonstrations and encampments conduct themselves.

Non-violence has been bedrock to the meteoric success the Movement has achieved, and to the support the Movement has enjoyed. Those who sought to take that for themselves last night through their violent actions have no chance of attracting any broad-based support from anyone for any purpose. That simply will not happen.

The Occupy Movement is now facing a challenge, perhaps its greatest to date. The threat that police violence represents to the Occupy encampments pales in comparison to the damage that can be wrought by individuals using the cover of the Movement for violent initiatives.

Can the Movement maintain discipline? Success or failure likely hangs in the balance.


Marc Ash was formerly the founder and Executive Director of Truthout, and is now founder and Editor of Reader Supported News.

Reader Supported News is the Publication of Origin for this work. Permission to republish is freely granted with credit and a link back to Reader Supported News.

 

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+92 # joyster 2011-11-03 13:18
Keep the faith Oakland - Gandhi's satyagaha all the way! Your strength and support comes from your peaceful protest.
 
 
+62 # John Locke 2011-11-03 15:36
They were infiltrated by government provacatuers...that is what they do mainly the FBI and CIA, they create Violence to discredit the movement, don't forget these "groups" take special interest and care of the Banks, the CIA has Billions of dollars in secrete bank accounts from their drug sales, the CIA was taking 10% of Noriega's drug business and only went after him when he double crossed the agency, and the CIA is involved with the Opium trade from Afghanistan, accordingly they are protecting the 90,000 plus acres of poppy fields...
 
 
+63 # michelle 2011-11-03 17:20
I agree, provocateurs were the problem. Provocateurs achieved the goal of the 1% turning people against the OWS movement. Let's look at some of the data:

1. A man in a mercedes plowed through the crowd and police ignored the action even when protesters asked for intervention. Where is the investigative journalism tracking down the driver and learning about his background?

2. The vandals were dressed alike in black pants and hoodies. Most were wearing masks. Again no police intervention. They brought paint to the march so it was a planned action. No arrests of these vandals, no knowledge of who they are.

3. Limited coverage of the real OWS cleaning up the damage caused by the vandals.

4. No coverage of OWS directing traffic when police failed to step up and direct.

The question we need to ask is who profits the most from the violent behavior. Certainly not OWS. The 1% must be smiling now. We need to be ever vigilant and questioning. Even more important we must keep in mind that the 'mainstream' media is corporate media with its own agenda promoted by the 1%. Stay alert, pay attention, gather data and draw your own conclusions. Never rely on paid lackeys reading the news on major networks.
 
 
+7 # Capn Canard 2011-11-04 06:06
michelle, I am disappointed that Mark Ash actually put his name on this piece with the title of "Anarchy vs. Non-violence". The march itself is anarchy in action! He should've at the very least, investigated as to who the actual black masked vandals were. I suspect some infiltration by Police plants and provocateurs.
 
 
+4 # wantrealdemocracy 2011-11-05 10:19
The violence was done by paid mercenaries of the 1%. People in the occupy movement must always have their cameras ready to take pictures of anyone committing violent acts. These people can be identified by the their facial features and will be shown to be working for the 1%. The 1% want violence so that the police and the army will 'pacify' (with great force) the people and allow the movement in our nation to flat out fascism to grow in control of every phase of our lives. We must be nonviolent but active in exposing the violent people who are working against democracy in our nation.
 
 
+6 # NanFan 2011-11-04 02:58
I hear ya, joyster, but guess what: we're just not poor enough yet to fully comprehend how to totally work in satyagaha. Gandhi's people were SO poor, they weren't even getting by day-to-day. They needed someone with power in his heart, strong enough to shake the change out of the pocketbooks of the powerful, to lead them with the conviction in his heart and act on their behalf at whatever the cost to himself. And he needed to look and act, to live poor, like them. And so he did.

But don't forget that in that moment in history when the breakdown of governance of India by the British was actually happening, the Indian people pitted religion-against-religion, Muslim against Hindu, and the fighting was massive and bloody, not peaceful. India broke up, created Pakistan as a separate place for Muslims to live. The Hindu who lived in that area marched back toward "their" India. Fighting was rampant, a civil war that did not stop but for a while after Gandhi fasted nearly to death. And then, the anarchists killed him.

Yes, we must maintain peaceful protest, modeling satyagaha, but we must be aware of who wants the Occupy movement to fail. Follow the money. And don't forget: though 15.1% of Americans live in poverty, most are invisible, not enough people see it, though it is there. And so, we're not yet "poor" enough to fully change. But get ready.

Nan
 
 
+66 # charlesjfrederick 2011-11-03 13:23
It is foolish and to say the least, imprecise, to conflate violence and anarchism. Anarchism is a serious political philosophy which challenges all centralized authority (which is what instead supports itself by institutional violence and police force.)Anarchism assumes governance to arise from the free and equal association of individuals. Anarchism is a discourse of politics, not a practice of violence. All the Occupies are examples of anarchism in principled practice.
 
 
+10 # Kolea 2011-11-03 13:53
I agree the commentary goes too far in conflating the Black Bloc group with "anarchism." But neither can you deny the BB folks are a variant of anarchism, no matter how distasteful their behavior may seem to you.

Just as Marxists have to recognize the Stalinists, Trotskyists, Maoists, etc., as their kin, so do non-violent, principled anarchists have to recognize the BB'ers as their kin.

Struggle with them.
 
 
+2 # andreyo 2011-11-03 21:05
well said.
 
 
+4 # Capn Canard 2011-11-04 06:21
Kolea, that is weak. I will deny that BB folks are a variant of anarchism, I see this Black Bloc group as more fascist than anarchist. The whole OWS movement is by it's nature Anarchist. They have NO LEADERS. That point has been the major attraction and it makes them anarchist. The vandals could very well be one of many aspects of capitalism or fascism or they were just too stupid to realize the futility of violence against this de facto Big Brother State of capitalism. Given our very recent past, I believe there is ample evidence to suggest that this is a case of gov't provocateurs. How much violence has anarchy caused throughout history in comparison to capitalists, socialists, fascists, and all other forms of government? The answer is virtually ZERO. It is always stated but no facts are recited nor is there agreement on any stories on the alleged violence of anarchist's. It is just spooky stories of things we fail to completely understand... like being afraid of the dark. Just turn on the light.
 
 
+93 # oaklandgrandma 2011-11-03 14:02
Has anyone considered that these "anarchists" are actually provocateurs trying to discredit the Occupy movement and to bring bad publicity to it?
 
 
+53 # John Locke 2011-11-03 15:38
Oakland gramdma: You are very right on, that is exactly what they were and they were wearing uniforms that tied them together so they would not be assulted by the police,
 
 
+22 # artaudir 2011-11-03 14:48
you are egregiously right about anarchism, problem is, occupy is not about anarchism, it is about the will of the people against corrupt, deceitful, and self-interested governance.... so to put it to you in your own terms, occupy is not a discourse (and much less an ideology or ism) of politics, but a practice of non-violence for redress of grievances....pure, simple, and true.... for the practice of a non-theory or a non-regime (but not an anti-regime like anarchy and not anarchistic theory) is the non-theory or non-regime of a practice, i.e. of a practice of non-violence indeed......
 
 
+2 # Capn Canard 2011-11-04 06:47
artaudir, no, not quite. Anarchy is meant to decentralize and dismantle authority's power and the corruption and abuse that is inherent in such systems. The OWS movement is certainly against corruption and self-interested governance while at the same time HAVING NO LEADER, and how is that not anarchy? That is the very heart of anarchy, where the people take control of their own destiny in a con-federation, so to speak.

quote: occupy is not a discourse (and much less an ideology or ism)"

Okay, I'll bite. I agree, likewise anarchy only ideology is to dismantle authority's grasp on power. That is why OWS is in fact anarchy. All that they are upset about are things sanctioned by our Gov't. OWS does have democratic methods and this is not necessarily out of line with a structure that has no recognizable structure(just because we don't recognize it doesn't mean it doesn't exist). It is evolving... but to apply such techniques on a grand scale is ridiculous, hence decentralizatio n may be the only "recognizable" structure it has and that is pure ANARCHY TO THOSE WHO HOLD POLITICAL POWER. And this scares the hell out of them so much so that it is reasonable to presume they would send thugs to create violence. That's my story and I'm sticking to it...
 
 
+30 # Vardoz 2011-11-03 15:02
This is not people anarchy! What we have is corporate anarchy!

Why New York’s Zuccotti Park is filled with people is no mystery. Reporters keep scratching their heads and asking: “Why are you here?” But it’s clear they are occupying Wall Street because Wall Street has occupied the country.
 
 
+22 # Lolanne 2011-11-03 16:17
Quoting
This is not people anarchy! What we have is corporate anarchy!

Why New York’s Zuccotti Park is filled with people is no mystery. Reporters keep scratching their heads and asking: “Why are you here?” But it’s clear they are occupying Wall Street because Wall Street has occupied the country.

That's a good quote from Bill Moyers' speech, Vardoz, but you ought credit the source when you use it.
 
 
+15 # Cambridgemac 2011-11-03 15:13
For a good example of anarchism in practice, see AA and other 12-step programs. "Our leaders are trusted servants; they do not govern." (The Big Book) NO ONE in AA can be told what to do. The 12 steps are suggestions. And so on.

Another example of anarchism: traditional Native American governance. No one could tell a brave what to do. The tribes operated by consent.
 
 
+2 # Progressive Patriot 2011-11-03 23:09
Bruce "U. Utah" Phillips was an anarchist. He was _never_ violent.
 
 
+37 # pazyluz 2011-11-03 13:24
Not sure who gave Occupy Denver to the Anarchists but so it is. It's like Altamont, lettting Hells Angels be police. Glad somebody's hanging in there every nite thru the snow & feeding the homeless anyway. The trick is to out# them, as we did during Democratic convention & do on Sat marches. You can put intelligent propaganda on their table & see it replaced with moronic web blogs. No one gets out unless we all get out so best to absorb them & counter their actions with self policing.
 
 
+34 # gentle 2011-11-03 13:48
Where's all the arrests? Officers are supposed to help keep the peace, even when it might entail some risk. Some corporate thugs just got a free ticket to disrupt. Last week, they arrested 'bout a hundred,just for camping. Now that planted violent criminals have been added, the police have to "lay off" arresting anybody for fear that these individuals could be traced back to wherever (whomever). Now the impetus for employing W Bush's WMF (weapons of mass fear) has been met, we the people are going to suffer more of the same - all over this land. Who knew that Homeland Security could be this invasive and crooked? Only time will tell.
 
 
+9 # Capn Canard 2011-11-04 07:01
No arrests? *!RED FLAG!* Perhaps the Black masks were a way to identify so-called pseudo-Anarchists so the police wouldn't arrest them, the idea being that the whole Occupy movement looks like bomb throwers. I predict we'll hear reports of violence from Occupy Oakland in the next few days when there is not any clear evidence of violence perpetrated by Occupy Oakland. But the lie is out there and you can rest assured that the media's best skill is perpetrating fantasies.
 
 
+6 # michelle 2011-11-04 09:39
and the lie is escalating. The idiot news people in my area are now saying 'protesters' were tossing molotov cocktails. I don't know about everyone else but I'm livid with the coverage on this event. Both CBS and ABC affiliate were drooling for violence and kept mentioning the possibility on the early news.
The car incident is really bothersome. A man plowed into the crowd and was allowed to drive off without:
1. a DUI check
2. an insurance check
3. an identity check
4. a driver's license check

He was allowed a free hit and run or in his case a hit and saunter off. I think you are right that the costume, black masks, were probably signals for police to ignore them. The black masks hit a Whole Foods for god's sake. I don't know what to do or where to go. We are probably sending our daughter to UBC in Canada for grad school and at least she will be out of the country. Truly, I don't know how to get back to reasonable culture. When I read the idiots posting on cnn I know it's hopeless.
 
 
+28 # Kolea 2011-11-03 14:03
Sometimes, it is difficult to tell who is a police agent-provocatuer and who is just a misguided, overzealous, over-excited activist who thinks violence is a shortcut to winning.

The movement has to develop a thoughtful and effective means of isolating these Black Bloc'ers and delegitimize their approach. In Seattle and in several of the European demonstrations, police agents have infiltrated the ranks of demonstrators, a tactic made much easier by the decision to adopt masks as the uniform of the BB.

The masks, and the embrace of the color black as a symbol of the "boogeyman" is a dumb tactic, frankly. It serves the interests of the security forces and undermines popular acceptance of the legitimate movement for a better world.

Again, which are the police agents and which are the true radicals, dedicated to a LONG struggle for justice?
 
 
+36 # Marc 2011-11-03 14:15
I want to remind people of a few things. I'm a New Yorker, we have our own movement whose only violence has been started by the police AFTER getting 4.5 million from Morgan. It's a police force currently mired in tip of iceberg corruption scandals. Remember the rioters sent to Florida during the 2000 recount? Bakers teams sent young Republicans to disrupt the recount -- the left got blamed. 04 Convention -- NYPD said agitators were coming with cardboard tubes filled with metal balls to trip horses, they are saying the same thing again about OWS. DO NOT BELIEVE THEM!
 
 
+33 # Buddha 2011-11-03 14:30
Nothing is going to torpedo this movement and swing public opinion AGAINST the occupy movement than violence and rioting. As joyster posted, we have to follow Ghandi and MLK's philosophy of peaceful protest and noncompliance, even in the face of the Police State violence against us. THAT is why swings public opinion FOR our movement. Every broken window and torched car becomes the headline, instead of the issues we are trying to fight to change, and that becomes a win for the 1% who are trying to craft that messaging against us.
 
 
+36 # Vardoz 2011-11-03 15:04
650,000 people put their money in credit unions. These are the kinds of actions we need more of.
 
 
+3 # GreenCorniche 2011-11-03 21:05
Gandhi's Indian Independence and the Civil Rights movement associated with MLK were part of a wide spectrum of resistance movements, some using violence, some not. In both situations, when power looked at the mess it had gotten itself into, it realized that Gandhi and MLK could be coopted as a way of defusing the radical potential of the overall resistance movement it faced. What I would propose is not violence of the sort the BB did last night in Oakland. That was silly and pointless. But any resistance movement unwilling to consider the full spectrum of tactics--from tactics of omission all the way to the commission of violence--has denatured and disarmed itself. Pacifism is pro-corporatism.
 
 
+42 # SiriusA 2011-11-03 14:31
What are the chances that those committing violence are hired by the establishment to discredit the Occupy movement?
 
 
+17 # artaudir 2011-11-03 14:53
in the hope your question was tongue in cheek or rhetorical, let me still respond and answer it like extremely high in number, because of so many incidents of hire both in the not so recent and quite recent past !!!
 
 
+16 # Mohanraj 2011-11-03 14:31
Violence begets violence. Both the protesters and the police should remember this. Long live Mahatma Gandhi!
Mohanraj, v.M.
 
 
+18 # Erdajean 2011-11-03 14:37
Maybe we are dealing with half-wit loons who see themselves
"backed" and empowered by legions of smart, purposeful, peaceable people -- whom the loons can never hope to understand.
Or maybe we are dealing with deliberate, vicious and violent "plants" -- placed and set in action by the fat-cat forces that the "Occupiers" are struggling to overcome.
Whatever, the vandals are disaster, an added burden on our Army of Conscience -- as if bad cops and nature's elements are not enough.
Internal self-policing is the only acceptable answer. By now most of the Occupiers know that the task they set for themselves will never be easy. And the rest of us need to know that we MUST support them every way we can -- or it's back to the fields of the old Fat Cat Plantation, for us and our children, as far ahead as we can see.
 
 
+18 # nancyw 2011-11-03 14:40
I hope the 'black-bloc' is understood to be very separate from the Occupy Oaklanders. I don't think they are even a part of them. They're simply angry, impulsive, irresponsible and immature individuals who have come together under those principles. They usually attach themselves to non-violent marches around any issue and cause havoc giving a bad name to non-violent gatherings.
 
 
+3 # donjo 2011-11-03 14:50
Marc, you need toe do a little more research: http://occupylosangeles.org/?q=node%2F1516
 
 
+35 # angryspittle 2011-11-03 14:54
Agents provocateur. Bet on it. There have already been pictures of police in civilian clothes among the protesters that have been published on numerous sites next to the same individuals a day or so earlier in uniform. This violence was planned, but not by the protesters.
 
 
+17 # Kolea 2011-11-03 15:05
It would be valuable if you could provide a link to some of these photos. The more evidence we can provide to convince the public about the REALITY of agent provocateurs, the better we will defend the movement against these tactics.
 
 
+23 # Margolicious 2011-11-03 15:00
I agree Homeland Security and the CIA committed violent acts to discredit the movement. Our government especially the CIA, military, Homeland Security, and State Dept. work to maintain and protect the lives and interests of the 1%. Thank you. Oakland Heroes do not lose heart--WE SHALL OVERCOME
 
 
+3 # andreyo 2011-11-03 21:14
I think it's a mixture of provocats and pissed off, impatient youth. I've met some of them... dedicated, sincere, supremely frustrated and so on. Either way, the challenge remains for us to deal with it: within our occupy communities, and during public marches. Though I agree the title is misplaced, this article is bang on.
 
 
+9 # hazel-up 2011-11-03 15:12
was it just property that was roughed up or people?

do we suffer our people getting roughed up and then feel shame and blame for striking out at property?

what does capitalism value more, people or property?

how much *daily* institutionaliz ed violence is done by capitalism in the form of incarceration, bombing, starving, proxy wars, and assassination?

are we worried that upper middle class people aren't going to approve? do we care more about that than the fact that institutionaliz ed violence destroys lives systematically as part of the cost of doing business?

just a bit of perspective cuz the really shocking shit is what's done in our names every day of every week of every year.
 
 
+4 # andreyo 2011-11-03 21:19
Yeah, this is the argument many an anarchist, blac bloq'r uses; and while you make a good point in theory, the reality is that the MASSES do not presently see it that way. So no offense but, as a strategy at the present time, (if it leads to this kind of "property damage") it's just stupid.
 
 
+18 # Kayjay 2011-11-03 15:13
I agree with many of the above comments that some violent moments paid for by right wing interests. Americans are still uncomfortable with protest. Thus the monied elite need not squelch information, they just manipulate the minds of the masses. It seems like political discussion has disappeared, in favor of misleading sound bites.
 
 
+14 # Bodiotoo 2011-11-03 15:15
There is no short cut to "winning"...we have a guarenteed right to
"peaceful assembly" to air our grievences...with the ruling bodies.
As I understand thw OWS movement it is about "We the People" having our voice(s) heard and get our elected officials to be responsive to the people, not the corporations. Please correct me if I am wrong.
 
 
+25 # argh1 2011-11-03 15:22
I'm a grey-haired, middle-class, Oaklander who participated in the Oakland strike and march yesterday....the march was fantastic - an assembly of nearly 10,000 people from all races, professions, and ages. It was entirely peaceful. It engendered good will even from those who it inconvinienced (stopped cars and trucks, etc.). Good will reigned.

I also saw some of the baby-ninja "black-bloc" kids suiting up for violent acts. From the look of it, they're not demonstrators at all; rather they're merely a bunch of spoiled suburban brats and low-life punks with no real political belifs; their goal appeared to be to provoke the police into a violent confrontation, as much out of boredom as anything else. They they could take BART back to SF or their mom's houses in the suburbs and smoke a joint and tell their friends about how cool they were. They in no way speak for or are even part of any movement.

It's a mistake to even call them "demonstrators", "activists" or even "anarchists"; they're just spoiled, angry, and fairly stupid children. I fully supported the OPD in arresting them. No public interest atttorneys should bother getting them out. Hopefully, they'll get heavy public service time..make them pick up their messes...
 
 
+14 # mizlee 2011-11-03 15:27
"These anarchists" are they really part of Occupy Oakland? Or could they perhaps be part of a plan to destroy the credibility of all of the entire "Occupy" movement?
 
 
+17 # MainStreetMentor 2011-11-03 15:34
The 99% must remain vigilant – and that is very hard to do in the middle of a protest movement. Those who would descend into anarchic actions, even momentarily, must be prevented from doing so. The peaceful, yet forceful momentum, needs to be maintained, else the “mob” that Cantor referenced can become reality. The efforts need support … and every citizen has the right to join in, but those members’ causes and agendas must not be separate or distinct from that of the overall effort. We want and need change from the implementation of greed embraced and enacted by the corporatocracy as well as eradication of support of their miscreant actions provided by our government towards that elite’s dictated schema … and … every 99% member should “buy into” that realization.
 
 
+12 # mwd870 2011-11-03 15:40
The Occupy Movement must maintain discipline by adhering to the principle of peaceful protest. It is true that non-violence has been bedrock to the meteoric success the Movement has achieved, and to the support the Movement has enjoyed.
 
 
+10 # amye 2011-11-03 15:59
These violent folks are NOT part of the greater Occupy Wall Street Movement! They are being very selfish and will ruin this incredible movement with their violence! If they want to be part of a fantastic movement, then they must put their violence aside! Violence never works for the greater good!!
 
 
+14 # head out the window 2011-11-03 16:02
Every group that expouses unlimited personal freedom attracts a certain amount of people who would use ideology to justify their own meaningless violent tendencies. I can agree with direct action, i agree that the amount of enslavement and killing by the corporate military machine is criminal and at times must be met with force, but not when it is bad strategy. These people are not anarchists, but people who use the anarchist banner to justify a riot and looting. If they are real anarchists bent on hyper-direct action, let them take over a bank or the stock exchange. Throwing bottles through windows is the equivalent of grafitti. To compare these people with anarchists is to think obama is a progressive, stalin was a communist and rick perry would be a great president.
 
 
+16 # webfoot doug 2011-11-03 16:16
True protesters don't wear black masks as if they were ashamed to be seen.
In Eugene Oregon a couple of years' ago a neo-nazi group called "Pacifica" had inspired the hate of the whole community, which showed their feelings with large peaceful protests-- but then a gang of black masked, drum beating ("anarchists?") managed to turn public opinion and the media against them with their obnoxious behavior. Not easy to become less popular than nazis, but they managed, as may also happen in Oakland.
And as many of you noted,they may be agent provocateurs as well.
Stand firm, stand proud, Oakland OWS!
 
 
+14 # disgusted American 2011-11-03 17:12
Two words: GOVERNMENT INFILTRATORS

Without violence, there's no excuse for the police to attack the Occupy movement. And police violence is necessary for the U.S. gov't to shut this movement down.

If the tear gas, rubber bullets and whatever else doesn't shut it down and also discourage growth, the gov't will perpetrate more violence and bring out more "non lethal weapons from its arsenal.

Similar to this gov't's tactics of causing destablization behind the scenes in countries it wants to invade and control, and then saying publicly it must go in to stabilize the country.

But at the point We the People are at, we have nothing to lose thanks to the so-called representatives of the American people on both sides of the aisle, so why not bring it on BUT peacefully unless it becomes necessary to defend oneself from the thugs who call themselves police?
 
 
+12 # disgusted American 2011-11-03 17:28
Forgot to say in my post above regarding gov't infiltrators necessary to cause violence in order to have an excuse for police attacks in an effort to shut down the movement and discourage grow . . .

This also gives mainstream media fodder to discredit the movement.
 
 
+6 # hazel-up 2011-11-03 18:20
[quote name="disgusted American"]Two words: GOVERNMENT INFILTRATORS

Without violence, there's no excuse for the police to attack the Occupy movement. And police violence is necessary for the U.S. gov't to shut this movement down.


really? was Scott Olson being violent? they busted his head open just the same.

here's the thing: never forget that the real violence is the theft of just about everything from just about everyone, with jail instead of education and a bomb on top.

i'm a law-abiding person, i use my turn signal, I pick up after my dog, and i say Have a nice day to people I don't even know. i think we should be cool while protesting, because as you say you don't want to supply any reason for additional crackdowns.

but, there's also the dimension of violence that permeates our entire society, and to worry about rage on this side instead of the wholesale destruction on the other side is backwards.

these may not be infiltrators, they may be very angry people who don't think property is sacred. it's important to think these things all the way thru instead of relying on a reflexive be-nice ideology--because the other side doesn't play nice at all.
 
 
+1 # disgusted American 2011-11-06 11:36
hazel-up,

You totally missed the point.

The violentce is by gov't infiltrators, not Scott Olsen or the other Occupiers.

There could be some crazies mixed in but for the most part the repression comes from the ruling class which wants this movement gone and needs to have excuses for attacking non-violent protestors.

So it sends in infiltrators to cause violence in order to scare people into going home and also others into not joining. The violence caused by gov't infiltrators also gives the media fodder to discredit the Occupy movement.

It's the gov't that is not playing nice.
 
 
+9 # Carolyn 2011-11-03 17:15
The 1% was asking what the agenda is. it sounds to me, from reading through this, that the first thing on the agenda is non-violence. Like the doctors, "First, do no harm."
 
 
+3 # Sandy 2011-11-03 18:11
I think we need to be cautious in the movement about equating "property damage" with "violence." As we struggle over defining ourselves and our tactics, I hope we can all be clearer on the difference between harming living beings and things essential to life vs. harming property and symbols of the oppressive class. Keep in mind, the more the "other side" can divide the Occupy movement the weaker we'll be, and having a militant edge is not necessarily a bad thing given the nature of what we'll likely be up against when we start to effect real change. I would like to see us struggle ideologically with the more politically advanced folks in the black bloc. (cont below)
 
 
+9 # dwainwilder 2011-11-03 19:03
If your livelihood depends on what you own you will have a different opinion of those who rampage through your things. I am an artist with patio windows for my shop. Any rampaging mob could wipe out my livelihood in about 10 minutes.

A mob isn't very nuanced in its views of oppressors vs shop owners vs automobile owners vs...

The whole power of the movement is based on showing the public what the oppressors reply to truth. This sort of nitpicking between 'acceptable' violence and 'unacceptable' will vitiate the movement. I know. I watched it happen in the Anti-Vietnam War movement.
 
 
0 # Sandy 2011-11-06 12:25
I hear you, and it can become a mob situation, though it doesn't seem like it has yet. Let's hope if that ever happens the movement or neighborhood would come together to help that individual or small business to put things back together.

Aside from the obvious economic impact, I think outright destruction is bad due to the waste of resources environmentally . I think there are ways of sending a clear message without outright destruction.

However, that said, I still think it's worth struggling with those who feel property damage is an effective tactic, to at least consider who they are targeting and affecting through their actions.
 
 
+3 # Sandy 2011-11-03 18:13
Many who identify with anarchism and the black bloc have been in the movement for years and ARE serious politically. We can struggle with them over what will help build the occupy movement at this moment. And through this kind of political wrangling and discussion they will discover who's who within their own ranks (serious, mischief, cop, provocateur, etc.). Perhaps the best elements in the bb will see a value in being more tactically creative and less destructive, along the lines of native tribes counting coup. For example, the big red painted (A) pictured above on what I hope was a set of bank doors. But extensive property damage, especially indiscriminate (if there in fact was any of that), is likely to detract from our ability to unite a wide section of people to support the occupy movement. It can end up putting the national spotlight and conversation onto what got wrecked last night and what are the police doing, instead of onto the essential questions: What's wrong with this system and what will it take to actually change it...
 
 
+3 # andreyo 2011-11-03 23:23
Yes I agree Sandy that many of the Blac Bloc are serious, dedicated activists, with a great deal of theoretical insight behind them; and it would be better if we could convince them of their great strategic error, (embracing violent confrontation, even property damage). I had such a conversation with a young couple... beautiful people... loving, self-confident; and once they understood my point about strategy, they talked to me about love, compassion and wisdom for hours.
 
 
+8 # Scotti 2011-11-03 18:47
Many good comments made already, and I concur with them. In the words of Ghandi: “First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.” We've already gone through the first two. It took several weeks before any of the media picked up the whole "Occupy" movement. Then we went through the second, and now we have reached the third, which is the police being called in to intervene. If we can, as a movement, persist, we will reach the final one: "we will win". But there are many powerful forces concerned with preserving their oversized piece of the pie, so this will not be a short phase. Hang in there!
 
 
+8 # dwainwilder 2011-11-03 18:58
Too bad Marc Ash confuses 'anarchy' with 'chaos.' Anarchy is not a destructive force, nor does it aim for the chaos he reports here. Anarchy is a system in which all power relationships are between peers, horizontal organization instead of hierarchical power relationships.

Journalists, please choose your words carefully! Much is at stake. The Occupy Movement is consensus driven, all relationships are peer-to-peer. That is its core genius. Do not conflate that with chaos.
 
 
+1 # andreyo 2011-11-03 23:30
Indeed. The Occupy Movement is quite anarchistic in its non-heirarchical, consensual character. The problem is that these Blac Bloc'rs are not behaving consensually... They're imposing their views on a great majority that does not want the result. They're hiding behind the movement instead of taking actions on their own. Very selfish and short-sighted... not to mention obviously spoon-fed and misled by provocateurs.
They're giving anarchism a bad name.
 
 
+11 # bobby t. 2011-11-03 18:58
when reagan fired the air controllers we did not act. when congress got rid of the draft, we did not act. the unions are almost gone, and the government has an army made of up career soldiers. we gave it to them, and now we are going to reap the hell of it. every dirty trick will be played. these people are not babies. they know and have been planning this corporate takeover long before the movie network warned us... keep slugging out there, but be prepared to jump future bb government infiltrators, and turn them into the police. this is called "hardball" by the aliles /rove/cheneys of this world. they don't play....
 
 
+4 # andreyo 2011-11-03 23:37
Good Point about the nasty nature of the modern state. They're well-armed and itching for a fight; they may just destroy society rather than give up their power.
On the plus side, they're actually losing control, (on many fronts which I can't go into).
And yes, I agree: we should come to a consensus about how to (physically?) "deal" with rioters in the midst of a march/rally; yet we should also deal with this in a more nuanced, persuasive way, within our communities, (pro-actively, so there's less for the cops to feed on).
 
 
+1 # James Marcus 2011-11-03 21:45
CIA - All The Way. Infiltration of the 'Occupy Movement' by CIA Antagonists (Black Elements -within; NOT the whole Outfit), intent on discrediting everything (based on violence), is a No Brainer.
Remember! These guys slaughtered 3000 in the Twin Towers and framed ....who?
These Serpents would kill their own mothers to further their Secret Agendas......
 
 
+5 # globalfamily 2011-11-03 21:54
Once these agent provocateurs try to hijack the movement -- especially during high-profile rallies -- it's time to take the focus off of the polarizing actions between police and protesters. Any activist from the post-Seattle WTO days recalls the similar issues with the black bloc and perceived violence ruining the image of the movement. Nonviolence is paramount, but so too is getting the true message out -- AND moreover, this movement is about addressing the unsustainabilit y of the current economic system. Occupy groups have shown that we can mobilize over the common good-- let's show our strength not just in numbers, but in innovation and ingenuity about creating the more sustainable world that we want. All groups should focus on the building blocks to create sustainable world and economy, starting from the ground up..a sustainable economy is not simply about renewable energy or environment, but it is about creating a system of exchange of products, services and resources that is equitable, much like a gift economy and that focuses on meeting basic human needs, and valuing everyone's contribution that allows them to manifest their true potential and contribute productively for the good of the whole.
 
 
+2 # Grand1 2011-11-04 06:44
"You say you want a revolution
Well, you know
We all want to change the world
You tell me that it's evolution
Well, you know
We all want to change the world
But when you talk about destruction
Don't you know that you can count me out
Don't you know it's gonna be all right
all right, all right."
Revolution - The Beatles - White Album
 
 
0 # hazel-up 2011-11-04 06:55
no, no, don't assume that these are provocateurs. they are part of our movement and we have to integrate what they're telling us into our program even if it's something we aren't feeling ourselves. don't shy away from thinking about what could make people do these things.

you think you're better than they are because you respect bourgeois property? no, this is a legitimate position to take: that the property itself was stolen, it's the result of violent exploitation. we don't owe anyone respect for that.

we absolutely must come to terms with this kind of action in our movement and understand it and where it comes from.

oscar grant died for no reason. this is the day to day brutality that many of us live with and we don't owe anyone respect for that.

unless we are brave enough to face things like this our movement will choke in the end--without the help of the cia.
 
 
+6 # rcmaze 2011-11-04 07:01
What if the Occupy movement were to come to consensus that no one was welcome unless they were committed to nonviolence? Also, what if there were consensus that no one was welcome to join the movement if they were wearing a mask? (so that anyone committing acts of violence could be photographed and identified)
 
 
+3 # bobbyvalentine 2011-11-04 08:08
I’ve been using a credit union for years, and can’t understand why anyone would keep their money at an institution that doesn’t treat them as anything more than something to be squeezed and punished for existing and being part of the average crowd. Find a better solution, and see how you’re treated at learnmore.asmarterchoice.org.
 
 
+1 # futhark 2011-11-04 15:49
Anarchy is nonviolence. How can you have something vs. itself? As soon as violence enters into a relationship, it becomes coercive and hierarchical and thereby ceases to be anarchistic.

The image of anarchists as a bunch of dark-skinned bomb throwers is a nineteenth century caricature invented by the established classes to induce fear in the populace. Anarchist literature tends to focus on cooperative, non-coercive relationships and behaviors. Once we refuse to accept or use the misrepresentati ons of ideas, we will free ourselves from prejudice.
 
 
-3 # KittatinyHawk 2011-11-04 15:58
Oakland is not OWS they have not followed the order that OWS is to do. Instead they have allowed either Thugs from GOP/TP come in and rile the movement because why would they care, their object is to disgrace it. Oakland has its way of not paying attention they made an excellent point in marching and closing port but burning stores, looting is now attached to them and to OWS Worldwide. That was not intelligent at all. They took a stand, allowed others to join up, it was on internet where trouble makers did see what was happening, Oakland allowed it to happen. AFL-CIO didnot need this either nor did military.
No Points with me, they knew better and have a bad mark that is attaching to all movements and giving the aholes what they want.

NY and other Cities are being set up with the transients. Cops are getting their snitches/usual subjects to go in and say they are associated. OWS must wise up and see that not all homeless are nice people. You have money laying around, food so you have Mooches, most of them have Police Records. Start knowing your following.
Bloomberg and Kelly low lifes are among you in NY...so get some street smart and clean up who is hanging. You cannot stop them from being in Parks etc but you can keep them away from you. Take their pictures, turn them in, but stay away from the looters and Republican thugs
 
 
+2 # noitall 2011-11-04 23:53
Those creating and provoking violence must be looked upon as being THEM, the 1%, no better than our elected officials who have turned their back on their people and collaborate with the 1% to keep the People down. These "anarchists" are owned by the 1%. They must be shunned without exception by the movement.
 
 
+2 # David Starr 2011-11-05 12:00
It wouldn't surprise me if this "black-bloc" were provocateurs. It sounds like committing violence simply for the sake of violence, & thus attempting to discredit the Occupy Oakland movement. BUT, what if by chance they are anarchists? Contrary to previous posters comments, anarchism does not equal total nonviolence. There is, e.g., the Anarchists Cookbook by William Powell, w/ instructions on how to make explosives. Although now Powell disassociates himself from the book; & anarchists have said it doesn't represent their philosophy. However, there have been anarchists who have used violence as a means of selfdefense & to oppose capitalism. Like other politcal philosophies, there are tendencies w/in anarchism. According to the Spartacus Educational website, anarchism is a philosophy envisioning no government, laws, police, etc. If it means some instant utopia, this isn't going to happen. Human history shows proof of struggles being both nonviolent & violent, ironically resulting in some progression. The Occupy movement is not anarchist, even despite its suppossed "leaderlessness." There must be some individuals in leadership-like positions in the process of organizing, rather than TOTAL spontaneity, i.e., TOTAL anarchy. But w/ organizing I don't doubt there's collective input.
 
 
0 # charsjcca 2011-11-05 20:58
Every movement runs the risk of having other movements hijack their venue. That makes trying to explain folks who are not oriented to your cause an impossible task. For the most part the aliens never attend orientation sessions or utilize the materials the sponsoring group produces. Media professionals should disregard those who are not connected to the sponsors. That is a tough call to make, but necessary.
 
 
-1 # rtrues54 2011-11-07 15:27
I agree 100% that the violence is done by undercover cops. However, we (the UNDERCLASS) have been violated for the past 30 years. Pretty soon our VERY SURVIVAL will depend on a TOTAL REVOLUTION... Which would need PROPERTY DESTRUCTION to speed up our SUCCESS.

By The Way... WHY is PROPERTY DESTRUCTION Considered as "Violence"?!?!
 
 
0 # goddessmother 2011-11-09 04:45
Using the anarchy to mean lawless bedlam and destruction is exactly how the plutocrats want it. You give anarchy a bad name. The whole Occupy movement is anarchy, just not lawless violent destructive anarchy. Anarchy also means the reduction of centralized government with the restoration of localized government by all the people. Anarchy means we can govern ourselves and we don't need a central government to tell us what to do.
 

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